FLAGSTAFF PUBLIC LIBRARY ORAL HISTORY PROJECT
Mrs. Charles Otto Black (Louise Hollis)
Interview number NAU.OH.28.7

Outline Covered in Taped Interview

Mrs. Charles Otto Black (Louise Hollis), who has been in the Flagstaff area since about 1940; her husband’s family has been in the area since 1881. Interview conducted by Susan L. Rogers on February 2, 1976. Transcribed April 27, 1994. Transcriber: Nancy Warden.

Tape 1 Side 1

Born in Massachusetts, 1913 (maiden name is Hollis)

First came to Cameron and Grand Canyon in 1938

Meeting husband, engagement and marriage in 1940

Background on Black family

Coming to Arizona

Black Springs

M.A. Black and death of Griffen, early 1890’s

Background on Charle’s mother

Finding bow and rifle in Sycamore Canyon

Cattle operations

M.A. Black blazed first trail to Grand Canyon

Businessmen traveled to Grand Canyon

Different Black members and occupations

Bars and gambling

Charles born in Flagstaff at 621 W. Aspen

Adults going to school with children

Tape 1 Side 2

First impression of Flagstaff

Saving water

City girl

Husband goes to her home in East to visit

Minorities

House first lived in, behind courthouse

Moved to 420 W. Dale in 1949

History of house and families that lived there

Pictures shown

Black family

Epidemic

Ranching

Going to a hogan

Bootlegging

Upsetting of ecology

Upsetting of cattle

Hashknife Gang

Blevins

Cemetery

James Lewis Black and Jim A-1 Black

TAPE 1, SIDE 1

This is an interview with Mrs. Charles Otto (Louise) Black who has been in the Flagstaff area since 1940. And her husband's family, the Blacks, have been in the area since 1881. The interview is being conducted on February 3, 1976 at 420 W. Dale, which is her home. The interviewer is Susan L. Rogers, representing the Flagstaff City-Coconino County Public Library.

SUSAN ROGERS: Okay, Mrs. Black, do you want to give a little background on yourself, when and where were you born?

MRS. LOUISE BLACK: I was born in Lynn, Massachusetts, ah, May 11, 1913.

SUSAN ROGERS: Okay.

MRS. LOUISE BLACK: I came first to ah, Flagstaff in 1938. I went to the Grand Canyon, was there ten days with my aunt, and met Mrs. Mabel Richardson, who ran the Cameron Trading Post. My husb-, my cousin, Edward Hollis had had the telescope out there which is now down at the University of Arizona. And through her, then, I returned in thirty-eight and stayed at Cameron for six weeks, where I met my future husband, ah as a, he was working for them and managing their ranch. I had no idea that I would end up with being married, and I went on back again, and ah, back east. And in thirty-nine I was on the north rim with my aunt for about seven weeks. That is, we had done the park, and I stayed on. And Mrs. Richardson came and picked me up and took me to Cameron, where I met Charles again, and, he was called Steen(?), incidentally, by all the cowboys. And I hadn't thought of him as a shy person, but he took me to all the Navajo sings that were going on. And in thirty-eight he had taken me to the ranch, and I didn't realize this was anything unusual, but it seemed to make quite a little furor. And he'd take me in town to the movies, you know. And I, I was very much attracted to him, but I thought the last thing I wanted to do was marry a cowboy.

And in 1940 ah, I had gone to New Orleans with my stepmother because, due to her illness I had had to leave Cameron sooner than expected. And she felt that she ought to make up to me for this, so she gave me a trip to the Grand Canyon. And I was supposed to go on to Palo Alto to see my cousin, and go through Glacier, and come home, and I never got there. I went out to Cameron when the Richardsons, the younger Richardsons, came after me, and they said you've got a lonesome cowboy waiting for you. And I thought they were teasing. And ah, I was very much upset, because, ah, like about six days later I had gotten engaged. And he asked me and I think, to me the amusing thing is my proposal, I asked him where we were, and he said we're on the road to Poverty Tank, and I always thought that was very significant. I said I just felt I couldn't marry him, and he said that if I didn't, he was going to Argentina. He'd been offered a job by one of the big meat packing companies to run a ranch down there. And I hated to drive him out of his own country. And he said he'd wait as long as I wanted to wait if I'd promise. And I felt we had nothing in common; that we were in for real trouble. But he said he'd do whatever I wanted, and this is what he wanted. So I went to. Well, one thing after another happened. I got the German measles; I got bitten by a scorpion; I got heat prostration out there at Cameron and ended up here in the hospital. And I thought, well if this is love, why this is really terrible, I was so sick. (both laugh) But I did have an engagement to be a bridesmaid back east so I finally pulled myself together and went back east in August. And my family, being very old fashioned New Englanders, said I couldn't come back out west unless I either married or broke my engagement. That it wouldn't be proper. So I, he had given me an engagement ring much to my surprise, and my step mother did not want me to wear it, because she felt that wasn't proper. Am I going too long?

SUSAN ROGERS: No, goodness no.

MRS. LOUISE BLACK: And so I finally wrote to him and I said would you wait. And the draft, of course, came along. You know, and I suppose I suddenly realized that I would miss him very much, and I said, I said I think I'd always be sorry if I don't marry you, because I know you're the only person I've ever really cared about, and I think that we're not suited for one another. I'm afraid we've fallen in love with a projection. So I wrote to him and said when would you want to get married? And he said, "Name the place and name the time, and I'll be there." So, my stepmother by that time was quite ill, with a heart attack and everytime she, I mentioned getting married, she'd burst into tears and said she couldn't abide that horrible the man, and of course she hadn't met him. So my father said, you can be married anywhere you want to in the United States, and I will go with you. So I said I will be married in Santa Fe. And he said, if I may be so bold, why did you want to get married in Santa Fe? And I said, "I've never been there." And he said he guessed that was as good a reason as any. So after this wedding which I was taking part in. My folks, we had to go through all the formalities back there, from the announced engagement, and I put it off as long as I could, and I mean so there wouldn't be parties and things.

SUSAN ROGERS: Uh Huh.

MRS. LOUISE BLACK: And then we went to Chicago. And I must say I'd always been sickly see, so, my father thought we would rest in Chicago, and then we'd get to Santa Fe a few days early. So, Charles was to meet me after the shipping. So, we set the date for the fourteenth of November, and I got there the twelfth. Then my father wanted to go out to Taos, and I said, "No, I think I'll just stay here. I'm tired." And I started to go down stairs from my room, and I passed a man on the stairs. I know what Freud would say about this. And I didn't speak to him. I wasn't looking at this stranger in city clothes. And all of a sudden I heard this gasping voice say, "Louise"; and it was Charles. He said he'd started, and he'd thrown his bedroll out at Holbrook, and he couldn't sleep, so he got up and got on his way and he got there way early. He was supposed to be there a day early and instead was there two days early. And he thought I'd changed my mind. And I had never seen him in eastern clothes. He'd bought a special suit, and he, I'd never seen him in anything but Levi’s and a big hat. And I just, I said, well it shows I don't speak to strange men.

So, we were married on the fourteenth in ah Santa Fe, and I. Then we took our honeymoon by driving back and spent a couple of weeks, well ten days at the Canyon. And then I went back to Cameron and rented a room at the motel, and he worked up at the ranch, which perhaps was a strange arrangement. And we stayed there until, ah, about forty-two. I guess I contracted undulant fever right off, of course. And that slowed things down. So I went east for about three months until I got that straightened out. And I realize now that upset everybody, except Charles who understood why I had gone. My family- I didn't bother to explain, and they thought the marriage wasn't working out, you see, but I didn't bother to explain. So I came back, and I must say it was, to me, it was a very happy marriage. I couldn't have asked for a nicer man. And, although sometimes we completely misunderstood one another, we used different words to mean different things, and our education background was different. As far as I was concerned, it was perfect.

SUSAN ROGERS: Uh Huh, right. Okay, do you want to tell me what your maiden name was?

MRS. LOUISE BLACK: Hollis. H O L L I S.

SUSAN ROGERS: Okay, fine. Okay, you want to tell me a little bit what you know about the Black family now?

MRS. LOUISE BLACK: Yes. Ah, Charles, there were twelve in his father's family as I understand it. They came out of what is now West Virginia in 1859 into Cedar Grove, Kansas. And it was just before the Civil War, of course. And his grandfather, whose name was Thomas Washington Black, I believe, freed all his slaves. This was, but one sister who came with him kept her personal slave. But the Negro’s all stayed with them, and his, Charles' father, was devoted to them all, and he really was very fond of and went out, and they had cattle and everything. Well when the locusts came, and there just wasn't enough money for twelve people, two girls and ten boys, as I remember. And one of them had drifted out here with a settler's wagon going for the gold to California, and he had ended up in Tombstone in about 1860, if I understand. And he must have told them enough about Arizona to interest them, so they came into Arizona. George Washington Black, who is the older brother, and Matthew Alexander Black, who was my husband's father.

In 1876, was somewhere around either Tucson or Tombstone and then into Phoenix, or what was Phoenix, then down there they got interested, and they came up to Prescott. And at that time Geronimo, this was in the 1880s, was on the warpath. So all they could get was a mule and a horse. And they didn't dare travel by day, so they would travel at night and sleep by day. And one would watch in a tree. And then it took ten full days, strange as it may seem, to get from Prescott to Black's Springs or to where they settled. And Black's Springs, I noticed you had a note there, is out on Oak Creek Canyon road. Oh, Peery Francis had that ranch; Ott Morrow had the ranch. I think it now belongs to George Nackard. And of course they came into here, into Old Town Springs. And ah, now let me see, should I, I probably should tell, because there’s a lot of talk about Mr. Black's father killing a man in a range dispute. And I probably have the family version, but I've also talked to quite a few people. Well a man named (Griffith(?)), who was a Civil War veteran and apparently there'd been a good deal of dispute over the, ah, water rights which was known as the watering hole. And he, ah, tried to kill George Black one time. And Matt had been too quick on the draw. So they came to Matthew one day and they said, "I, I can’t think of his name, Griffith, this Griff, I think they called him, is going to kill you." And he said, "Oh I think that must be a mistake. I'll go see him." So the men all drove over to where they found Griff. And he said, "Griff, I can't believe what I've heard." And Griff said, "I'm, if you've heard I'm going to kill you, you're right." And Matthew drew at the same time and killed him. So when they went to bring him home to his wife, they thought they'd prepare her. And they said, "I'm terribly sorry, Mrs. Griffith, we have bad news for you." And she said, "I know what it is," she said. Griff has killed Matt Black." And it wasn't so. So some of the Babbitts will tell you that _______ remembers seeing this man guarded by four of his brothers. By that time, some other brothers had joined him. This must have been in the early nineties as I understand it. He was never tried for murder, but the men hid him out for awhile thinking there would be reprisals you see. (Puts kitten outside). He never was on trial; it was justifiable homicide. And I think, I feel that, ah, it was not resented by Mrs. Griffin(?) because she became the mother of Lura Kinsey, you've heard of the Kinsey School, and Mrs. Kinsey, Miss Kinsey was devoted to the Blacks and so was her mother.

SUSAN ROGERS: Huh!

MRS. LOUISE BLACK: So there must have been no hard feelings.

SUSAN ROGERS: __________

MRS. LOUISE BLACK: Yes. I don't know what the story, other, may be, but this is what I've heard. And I know my husband always watered Griffiths's(?) grave over there every Memorial Day. And he said that his father, he didn't even know it 'til after he was married, because he was the youngest in his family. And then I was at an Episcopal party and some body said, wasn't it too bad that that old man had to murder that man. That was the first I knew. You never know quite how to bring these things up. And I said, "Well by the way did your father kill a man?" And he said, "Yes, but I didn't know it". And there was a cousin of his who had killed a man at Mormon Lake. So you see it didn't help the family's reputation.

SUSAN ROGERS: Uh Huh.

MRS. LOUISE BLACK: At a much later date, when he was not around here. So that was just that.

SUSAN ROGERS: Uh Huh.

MRS. LOUISE BLACK: And Charles' mother was born in Ft. Union, New Mexico. Her father was with the Union army. And her mother was a little Irish girl from some where in Ireland, who was orphaned and sent to New York, and ran off with this good looking lieutenant. And this is about all that I can tell you except they had a ranch at Santa, outside of Santa Fe, in the early days. And the Indians would descend on them, you know, and demand fresh bread. She said it used to frighten her when she was little. And then her father disappeared. Presumably killed on convoy, but possibly not, perhaps he just got tired, you never know. And she and her mother and sisters and brother ran an inn in Socorro, New Mexico. And they used to have to hide the carriages and the horses at night because the raiding Mexicans, they were far more afraid of than they were of the Indians.

SUSAN ROGERS: Uh Huh.

MRS. LOUISE BLACK: Now tell me what you want next.

SUSAN ROGERS: Okay. Do you have some more notes there that you just want to continue with?

MRS. LOUISE BLACK: Well, ah, one of the first places that George Black and Matthew went was into Sycamore Canyon, and also around the Lake Mary area- was out in there. And in one of the caves in Lake, in, ah, Sycamore Canyon, Charles' father found a giant long bow, it’s taller than a man, that apparently Geronimo's people used, you know.

SUSAN ROGERS: Hmmm.

MRS. LOUISE BLACK: Which was interesting but I do not have. He also found broken on a rock outside a cave an old rifle, such as they carry across the plains, which I do have.

SUSAN ROGERS: Hmmm.

MRS. LOUISE BLACK: And the Indian apparently assumed that once it stopped firing that it was broken. You see he didn't seem to understand the principles, and we do have that.

SUSAN ROGERS: Huh! What happened to the bow and arrow? Do you have any ideas on that?

MRS. LOUISE BLACK: No, no, I asked one of the other members of the family, and they don't seem to know what happened to it. But it was interesting to know that they did have those long bows, which you do see in movies, that they did actually get so that they could zero in. And they, George Black, the older brother, did extremely well, and sold out for well over a million dollars and moved to California. And Mr. Matthew Black was always helping his other relatives who joined him. And perhaps he wasn't as good a business man. And he got in debt to Babbitts, and he, so had to sell his cattle, which was the "seventy-seven bar". And later, a Mr. Young took that brand and he sold, after he died, his wife sold out to the Richardsons, which is how Charles came to work for them. He'd been with this Charles Young. Before that Charles had had his own cattle which he ran under the "Bar S K' brand. And they ran cattle then all together, as I said, with Babbitts, are probably the biggest around, but everybody, Michelbachs, all these people worked together. And they would sleep in a different place every night for three hundred and sixty-five days. And they would work the country all the way across to the river, across from Needles, and then they'd to back, and they'd work through Kendrick Park. And in the twenties, finally when all the long horns they decided to get rid of, were shipped from Bellemont, I do have pictures of that.

Now we had an uncle James L. Black, who found a coal mine, and it is out on the reservation. Of course there was no reservation then. And he was killed when the ore bucket fell on him. But he was a deputy United States Marshall with Buckey O'Neill and Sinclair, and I have that picture. Also I think it should be mentioned that Charles' father blazed the first stage coach trail to the Grand Canyon. And I do know, or I did know where the blaze is at Grandview on Pine(?). It seems incredible, you have to look way, way up unless it's been cut down in the last eight years. And Mr., ah, Paul(?) Walhman(?), no, Russell Walhman, yes, what was, is that the right name?

SUSAN ROGERS: I, I don't know.

MRS. LOUISE BLACK: Well he used to write for Desert Magazine, and he wrote quite a lot. He's no longer here. He's with NASA. And I think his facts were accurate. The story goes that the Santa Fe asked Mr. Black if he would blaze this trail, because they thought he knew it. And he did it. And so then all these men came in from Chicago in their nice business suits, and they got on a bit of a tear that night at the local saloon. So the next morning when he hitched up his wagon to take them, they were dying of thirst. And he got a certain place up in the Hart Prairie region, a bit beyond, which is the way it went. And they just said they had to have water. And he carried a little canteen, but that was nothing. So finally he got to this place where he was going to water the horses, and of course, it was red mud, and he had to dig down. And these men were so desperate with their hangovers that they all got down in the red mud, and for some reason, that amused him very much, because their lovely suits were all covered with red mud. And that was the first trail, and it went past the Buckley(?) Ranch and came out, as I say, at Grandview. And that was the first blaze(?), the first stage coach trail to the Grand Canyon. Otherwise, I don't know that the Blacks contributed anything in particular. There was a Black, Vail and Black saloon on Front Street, and I'm not sure if that's where Club 66 is now or not. I rather think that originally it was over where the Jones(?) place used to be. And then later, there was a cousin who came in and ran Black's Bar which did become Club 66. Which you know seemed very interesting, because they were raised Methodist, and they didn't approve of card playing, and they didn't approve of liquor. But they all seemed to be in it except my husband. A lot of them were cowboys (and move this one little thing _________). Oh, Bill Black, the brother who had first come out in 1860 (sic) was a gambler, and they all called him "Gambler Bill". And he ran a faro table down in Prescott. And even his brothers thought he couldn't be honest, even though they could never catch him, because he always won. So, a man pulled gun on him one time, and he said, "One false move and you're dead." And he dealt, and he won again. And they didn't shoot him. And then he became religious and retired to San Francisco with quite a lot of money.

SUSAN ROGERS: It sounds like there were quite a lot of Blacks down here. Can you maybe tell me what all the relations were? I know that's probably hard, but if you can give me an idea about how many there were out here.

MRS. LOUISE BLACK: I think actually, let me see, there was George Black.

SUSAN ROGERS: Now are these all brothers that you are going to list here, or?

MRS. LOUISE BLACK: Well there's a little confusion, because there was a a woman whose grandmother actually was, ah, one of Queen Victoria's Lady-in- Waiting and ran off with a Drape(?) which is St. Louis(?). That was considered the wrong thing to do. And she married first a John Black, and he died. And she had three children, I think, two anyway by him, George and Chester. Then when he died, she married his brother, who was this George I've been speaking of and had three more children, Jim, ah, Mary and Claud. Claud lives down in Phoenix now, and there used to be Claud Black Brothers Stage(?) in Black Canyon City. Used to be a sign there. But he must be in his eighties. I think he could be a great source to tell.

SUSAN ROGERS: Yeah, let me write that down. Claud

MRS. LOUISE BLACK: Yes and I have his address if you'd like it.

SUSAN ROGERS: Okay.

MRS. LOUISE BLACK: I feel he knows far more than I do. And would be more accurate. Mary lives in Los Angeles, and her last name is, ah, Ford. I can give you that if you're interested. And if she can't, if she isn't well enough to answer, her daughter has a great deal of information.

SUSAN ROGERS: Okay.

MRS. LOUISE BLACK: There was Mary Black whose name was Vail, married to Vail, and that house on Leroux, that is torn down now, it was on the corner of Leroux and, ah, Dale, Dale.

SUSAN ROGERS: It's torn down?

MRS. LOUISE BLACK: Yes. And Mrs. Michelbach, I think worked for them as a cook to begin with when she first came here.

SUSAN ROGERS: Is that J.A. Vail?

MRS. LOUISE BLACK: Yeah.

SUSAN ROGERS: Uh huh, uh huh.

MRS. LOUISE BLACK: And they moved to around San Francisco and did extremely well. And she had a twin, and I'm not sure what his name was, but there was Bain(?) and there was Bob Black. I know they were here. One of them, I think, lost his marbles and ended up in, he got very religious. Perhaps I shouldn't, that's unkind of me to say that. But he got very religious and was over there in, in the Bay area. I think, this was all even before my husband was, you know, knew anything. This Bill Black had a son named Forrest (sp.) who was a photographer in San Francisco, and as far as we know, he's dropped out of sight. Then they had an aunt, Priscilla, who came out here later. And she was the mother, she married a Peter Raudebaugh. And she was the mother of a Edgar, Oliver, the one they called Wid, William, and that would be Molly Pertuit's grandmother, if that means anything to you. Well, Mrs. Paul Pertuit. And I don't and and, ah, her people were the Francises, whose father was the sheriff.

SUSAN ROGERS: Right, uh huh, I've heard that.

MRS. LOUISE BLACK: Yeah. Ah, I probably, well there was, yes, there was another Black who came in here late. And, oh when I say late, not until the railroad came in you know. And that would be Ruth Bean over here on Aspen is the daughter of Lulu Black Sullivan. And then Mary Donna Bryson and a Bernetta Bryson, whose mother was Creola Black. And they had a brother named Bernan, who I think was a constable or a sheriff here, and they called him "Bum", which always seemed an awful-

SUSAN ROGERS: Bum? B U M?

MRS. LOUISE BLACK: Yes, yes, nickname.

SUSAN ROGERS: (laughs)

MRS. LOUISE BLACK: And he died I think in Wickenburg. But he was around here for years, and frequently married.

SUSAN ROGERS: Uh huh.

(Both laugh)

MRS. LOUISE BLACK: He was an awfully nice person, ah, and there again I don't know very much about him. Then there was this younger George Black, who I think would have been a nephew of my husband, ah father, that is a cousin of my husband. And he was the one that married Stella Hart, for his first wife, and lived in Oak Creek. And there used to be a Hart store where Sedona is now, that was about all there was. And then he, his second wife, after Stella died, was Sally Black. And I think she left the old Black property to the Catholic church, who I sorta think had sold it. And he had a son, Edmond Black, who runs Indian Garden.

SUSAN ROGERS: Huh!

MRS. LOUISE BLACK: You know where that is? The roller skating rink and so forth? And he had two children, Helen Brewer, who ought to have all the family history because she's been converted to the Mormon faith.

SUSAN ROGERS: Okay, now where does she live?

MRS. LOUISE BLACK: Somewhere in Mesa, and I do not have her address, but, of course Edmond, he is and down(?) there.

SUSAN ROGERS: Okay and now Edmund Black, right, in Sedona?

MRS. LOUISE BLACK: Edmond, m o n d, I think. And the other son, who the other person is Rusty Black, Lewis, but you'll find him in the telephone book under "Rusty". And he lives out here at Schnebly Hill and the highway camp. And whether he has the slightest interest in the family I couldn't tell you.

SUSAN ROGERS: We'll get these people down on a master file, you know, and then people can go that way(?).

MRS. LOUISE BLACK: Well what I was thinking, ah, my daughter may have the whole family tree, because I know that Mary Black had it. And then Helen, oh, Black Brewer, her name is, her last name is Brewer. She married one of the Brewers there from Brewer Road there in Sedona. I don't think I have her address now, but supposedly she went in for it, you know how the Mormons, that they go in for all that.

SUSAN ROGERS: Right, right, uh huh.

MRS. LOUISE BLACK: And she ought to have everything. She did send me up something. Now Charles' father was born in, I'm quite sure, in Greenbriar County, which is what is now West Virginia. And she had him, born in some, in Kansas- which wasn't right. I, I don't know. Some of the family where it depended on the ages, don't you see, some of them were born in West Virginia, or what is now West Virginia. There is a place back there called Blackburg(?) which is where I think they came from. They came originally from a place called Richburg. It disappeared, as I understand it, and then this Blackburg was where all the, and there are ones that stayed. And there are people in Kansas to whom they're related that come through every once in awhile. So there must have been-

SUSAN ROGERS: Big family.

MRS. LOUISE BLACK: And there was a family here in town that I never understood about, but I know that the grandfather said that he was related through the Allens. There was an Allen and a Ramsay family, you see, and I, ah, think they just sort of lost track.

SUSAN ROGERS: Uh huh, uh huh, okay.

MRS. LOUISE BLACK: Well, he was born, he was the only one of his family, my husband, who was born here in Flagstaff, and was delivered by a doctor. All the others had to be delivered by neighbors or helps or midwife. He was born at 621 W. Aspen Avenue, and Dr. Raymond delivered him. Which I think is-

SUSAN ROGERS: Is this Dr. Raymond _____?

MRS. LOUISE BLACK: Yeah, and ah, that was, that was the only time his mother ever had any medical help.

SUSAN ROGERS: Huh! Now did he live in that house all through his childhood then?

MRS. LOUISE BLACK: All through his schooldays. They'd go out to the ranch. They had a homestead up in Hart Prairie, which is called the Black Ranch, but was now owned by the Forest Service after Mr. Cline got it or Mr. Cline's mother got it. And he sold it to the Forest Service. And then the, the last place his father, when he could never believe the country was closing up, after he sold off to Babbitts, he had one out in the cinder hills, Black Bill Park. And it ended up by being just a bean ranch really. And then they finally sold that for very little. I guess now that would be good suburbia.

SUSAN ROGERS: (laughs) Right. Okay, did he ever tell you any stories that you remember from his childhood in Flagstaff or the area?

MRS. LOUISE BLACK: Well that they used to play, ah, marbles where the Monte Vista is. And when he first went to the Emerson School it was not at all unusual to see, what seemed like grown men to them, people with beards going to school, because they wanted some education so badly. And-

SUSAN ROGERS: Now would these men actually be in their classrooms or would they have separate?

MRS. LOUISE BLACK: Yes, no, they were right in there. And they used to treat the little boys pretty hard(?). One of the games at recess was to take the little boys and throw them and stack them like cordwood on top of one another. But the, Al, and he did say there used to be a good deal of fighting between the Mexicans and the whites. And yet, it seemed to me, that some of his best friends, they were always glad to see him, would be some of the Mexican boys he'd gone to school with. And then he went for the seventh and eighth grade, he went over to the training school 'cause he thought it had more to offer. And he didn't go to high school because, although his mother offered, you had to pay. And he knew by that time, as he was the baby of the family, and an unexpected addition, because she was forty-five, that it would be better if he went to work. And he went to work as a cowboy, and, ah, grew up pretty fast that way. I suppose that was one of his appeals to me. He was always adult.

SUSAN ROGERS: Okay, now when he first started, do you remember where he first started working?

MRS. LOUISE BLACK: I, I think he worked with his father, his cattle, you see as long as he could. And then he did work I think for awhile for the CO Bar, besides representing them, as I say he had his own cattle until the bad depression came and he-

END TAPE 1, SIDE 1, BEGIN TAPE 1, SIDE 2

MRS. LOUISE BLACK: Very unattractive.

SUSAN ROGERS: Okay, go ahead.

MRS. LOUISE BLACK: Can I say that?

SUSAN ROGERS: Right, say that, what your impressions were.

MRS. LOUISE BLACK: Well, when I first came to Flagstaff, I used to say it was very depressing, and he couldn't understand this. I said the scenic background was so gorgeous. And all these hideous little store fronts. And some of the people would just empty their cans out in the back yard in a pile. And I just couldn't understand it. And I suppose just like all the rest of us, he was used to it, just as I was used to a city that was probably grimy and ugly, and I didn't see it. And he didn't see this. Of course no one had lawns. Water was so precious. Nobody would ever realize what it meant. And I can remember years when I learned to save all the water out of my washing machine, just to keep the bushes around here alive and carry out. And he'd always help me. And he was so conservation minded that when I think of the people today who talked about water, I realize they have no conception. He was the one that taught me that you soap yourself all over with as little water as possible, jump into the shower and get it all off, or into a barrel, which is what they used up at the ranch.

And he also had a great knowledge of all pictographs and petroglyphs. And this was one of the things we loved to do. We'd just go off anywhere, just drive over, which I'm sure you shouldn't now. Anything that, whether it was a road or not. And so I've been to all sorts of strange places. I've camped at, what's now very far from Bow and Arrow, and on the edge of Lake Mary, and up what we called the old Bert Babbitt place which is near Red Butte. And I was not (emphasis supplied) an out of door girl, and I hated it all, as far as that went. But if he liked it, I liked to go with him to see these things. And he had no conception of how many miles a place was, but if he wanted to go somewhere, and he'd always traveled on horseback. And of course we did take the car as a concession to me. Because as he said if I had ridden eastern style, I didn't realize at first about neck reining. I was used to the other sort and of course I'd pull on the wrong rein, and the horse would go in the wrong direction. And he would remind me that man was master of the horse. But I didn't, and of course I'd walk along very timidly, and he wanted to go at a good gallop, you see. So we weren't particularly friendly(?).

SUSAN ROGERS: Did he, by any chance, take any trips to the east with you, you know, where he _______?

MRS. LOUISE BLACK: Well, you see I kept it as rather a secret from him. I suppose this wasn't right. But the way I'd been raised with maids and chauffeurs and what not. And I accidentally let it out one time when I said someone’d meet me in Boston. And he asked who the person was, and I said it was a chauffeur. And he said what the hell's wrong with your family, do they all have their arms broken that they can't drive? And I, I tried to live on his, of course it was awfully hard on me, my hands hung down at the end of my wrists. I'd never made a bed; I'd never done anything. And so of course I was stupid and awkward. And he did a lot of the cooking, and I finally learned to cook from him.

SUSAN ROGERS: My goodness, you had a big switch, didn't you?

MRS. LOUISE BLACK: Yes, and I felt awfully stupid. I really felt incredibly stupid.

SUSAN ROGERS: But you were glad the whole time that you had made the decision to stay out west?

MRS. LOUISE BLACK: Yes, it was so much better, as far as I'm concerned, than to be over protected and all that. So when my daughter was born, we'd been married six years. I asked him if he would mind, he was working then at the Wineglass Ranch in Prescott, and I asked him if he'd mind very much coming back to help me bring the baby back. That was during the war, and there was only one doctor here in town. And I said I'd just as soon deliver myself as to have him. So in the end I went back east at the last possible moment. Well about two months before we thought, it turned out to be a little than that she was due. So he did fly back there. And the one thing he wanted to see was the Peabody Museum at Harvard, because they've done so much work here. And I was awfully sorry that so many of their Indian exhibits were closed at the time. If I'd known in time I could have arranged. And also, of course, he wanted to see the ocean. And my house was very close to the ocean. But do you know, he'd never been at sea level, and all the time he was there, he suffered from this terrible feeling of compression. Just as people who come here.

SUSAN ROGERS: When they come up here, right.

MRS. LOUISE BLACK: Yeah. And I'm afraid that my house was rather a bad blow to him, because he hadn't realized until he got back there the way I'd lived. And he thought it all seemed like a lot of nonsense to him. But he was nice about it, you know. I mean it was all right, it just, ah, but I think maybe it made him feel sad. He thought perhaps that I'd given up.

SUSAN ROGERS: No, no(?)

MRS. LOUISE BLACK: I don't know, just remarks he made. But it wasn't, it didn't make any difference, really. Because I didn't care if I ate out of a tin plate, truly, I, I never have.

And as far as you asking me about Indians. I offended my stepmother mortally when she said how can you live among those savages? Because they'd always eat around me. And I said to her, they're not a bit different from the Breeds and the Newhalls, which were two old families back there, and she happened to have been a Breed. And I set the thing, or maybe they smelled rancid tallow, which I sometimes found a little offensive, but I said if I had to live as they live, ah, I wouldn't take a bath as often as they do. And you see, she had this wrong picture of me. My father didn't feel this way at all, and I did dread just a bit having my father meet him. I didn't know what he'd think. And I always remember that my father said the nicest thing he ever said. He said how much I like him. He said some how I knew you wouldn't pick somebody I didn't like. And my husband said he doesn't seem a bit like an easterner, which to him was-

SUSAN ROGERS: Was a real compliment.

MRS. LOUISE BLACK: Yeah, and they always got along fine.

SUSAN ROGERS: Okay, um, do you want to tell me a little bit more about the Indians, with your exposure to them mainly when you were at Cameron.

MRS. LOUISE BLACK: Yes.

SUSAN ROGERS: In Flagstaff?

MRS. LOUISE BLACK: Yes, although they'd show up after we moved to Flagstaff, but somebody'd come to the door with a bleeding finger and (makes sound) hold it up and expect a Band-Aid. And I never knew why. And I used to pick them up. I mean it made them feel better to have a Band-Aid. And I knew- always they seemed to me perfectly friendly plus the women were much shyer. I never felt that I knew the women nearly as well with the exception of just one of them. The Hopi girls, I got to the point where I felt that I knew them as well as you ever know anyone of a different race who perhaps feels that they can't speak their mind freely, so they just pull the shade down and their eyes go blank and all. But I never tried to treat them any differently. I couldn't picture these people that I've seen come into Cameron, school teachers, walking up and holding on to some Indian's belt and said, "Come here and look at that." Or go in and walk into their hogans. I have been into hogans, but I've always been invited. I have been to sand paintings which I now look back on as very fortunate, because I saw Scott Preston, who was actually half white, do one of the most magnificent sand paintings I've ever seen, just standing there and drawing lines from here for a big sing. That was back in thirty-nine when the littlest _______ of the year was corn(?). And it was absolutely fascinating and incredible. When I think now when I look back how fortunate I was to see that. The Indians called my husband "Slim _______, he calls me "Slim Cowboy", and they called me ___________(Indian name) which is just "Cowboy, His Woman". I, I got so I picked that much up because I know they were talking about me, but I don't know what they said.

(Both laugh)

SUSAN ROGERS: Right, okay. Now how about while we're talking about minority groups. Do you remember very many Chinese around?

MRS. LOUISE BLACK: No I don't. When I came, as far as I was concerned, everything was all right. My husband told me that back when his uncle, one of them, was a constable or something, he had to put an ad in the paper telling the people, "We've got to treat the Chinese better. There'd be no more shooting at them, or he was going to arrest them. There'd be no more pulling on their que." And I do know that some crazy fool practicing his gun just like Billy the Kid apparently shot a Chinaman. I can't believe it; I don't understand it, but this was apparently the fact in the eighties. Now as far as the Negroes were concerned, I know that my husband's father was extremely fond of them. I mean he had this, having grown up with them in the camp. But he told me that his mother, which I don't quite understand, having grown up in New Mexico, she got along fine with the Mexicans, for she could speak Spanish, but the, he said he always felt she had a _________ something vaguely repellent, and he, he couldn't figure just what it really was. He said his feeling was I didn't have anything particular in common with the ones, there were very few. He said there were some he was fond of that had come in here early, like Charlie Johnson and some of those. But some of the ones that were brought in later by the lumber companies, up from Louisiana, field hands, were pretty rough by any standards. Ah, he didn't care for, but he said he didn't wish them any harm. You know, it was just that feeling that, ah, we might have about poor white trash.

SUSAN ROGERS: Right, right. Okay, now when you first moved into the Flagstaff area, where did you and your husband live?

MRS. LOUISE BLACK: Live? Well we lived in a little house that belonged to the Michelbachs which is still there, but changed so you wouldn't recognize it. It was behind the courthouse. And, ah, 'course Cherry didn't go through then at all. You know where that's all been clipped out, well it's now, I think green. It was just a little, in my mind, shanty. It's all somewhat the, ah, Negro railroad people used have outside of Savannah, that's what it made me think of. And I always felt so happy, because I used to worry about them with all these little pickaninnies coming out the window as the train would back into Savannah. And I thought why I was so happy there that they must have been happy, too. But I nearly froze to death all the time. There was nothing but a wood and coal stove; I didn't know how to manage it. But I'll tell you I learned awfully fast how to build fires. (asks to have tape turned off)

MRS. LOUISE BLACK: Well we lived there until the winter of forty-eight, and then we had bought this house. And we thought we'd move at a reasonable time and not hurry, and the great snow of forty-nine came and in the end, Charles had to move our last possessions down on a sled. And we got settled here, and I've lived here ever since. And this was one of the older houses in Flagstaff. Ah, once on this site was a man named Finley who had a hardware store. And whether this is, well I do find, did find some old paper up in, when we had to go in that wall there. And then there was a family named Hoffman, boys that he used to play with. And this was out in the country. It doesn't seem possible, but it was. And a lot of the land fill was from the ashes of the Emerson School, so even to this day, when it rains hard enough, I'll occasionally find marbles that the teacher had confiscated and apparently put in the ashes, and the janitor filled the, Mr. Hoffman filled the land. There was a big garden out where my garage is and there's a well, but I've never been able to locate that unfortunately.

SUSAN ROGERS: So, how old do you think this house is, about? How far does it go back, do you know?

MRS. LOUISE BLACK: Well the first one that we know of, there was that burned, but the first one we know of was 1910. But it has been so remodeled. Where you're sitting now was a porch as I understand, a veranda. And that hall was a veranda and a little sun porch. And then that was all taken into the house. And the same thing was true with the back porch. And then apparently the upstairs was put on afterwards. Each person that lived here, Mr. Jacobson was a carpenter, and he remodeled it. And Roy Wensel who was a painter, he remodeled it. And then he sold it, and people to whom he sold it couldn't do much. And then we put in the hard wood floors and of course made a good many changes as you do over the course of the years and all.

SUSAN ROGERS: Uh huh, uh huh. Okay, you want to tell me whose house this is? (Must be looking at pictures.)

MRS. LOUISE BLACK: This is at 621 W. Aspen.

SUSAN ROGERS: And it's still there, right?

MRS. LOUISE BLACK: Yes, and this says Mr. M.A. Black. Some of these were taken by, ah, I think Mr. George Babbitt, Sr. 'Cause one of the family thought they might have...this is Mrs. Black, and this is her four children that survived to the Blacks. There were three preceding them that died in an epidemic. I mean we don't realize sometimes what a hard time those women had. She told me she came back from the funeral of one only to find the other sickening.

SUSAN ROGERS: Is this that flu epidemic, or this another?

MRS. LOUISE BLACK: Oh, this was way back in the nineties.

SUSAN ROGERS: That had to be when-

MRS. LOUISE BLACK: No, no. Ah because my husband was born in 1908, and he was the youngest of the family. And his brother was born in 1898, I think. And these three children had preceded him. And one of them was eight years old. So you see we go back to... Ah well all I know is that Mrs. Black married her husband when he was, right after this murder that I told you about. And her mother and a sister-in-law came up and told her she mustn't marry him, because he was a wild cowboy and all this, what bad people they must be. So that only made her firmer in her resolve. She had come here with her previous husband and had rented the house at Black Springs from Mr. Black. And when her husband had TB and he died, and she wanted her flowers to grow, so she stayed, and then of course she married him. Perhaps she wouldn't have if her mama hadn't urged her not to. I think she's quite stubborn.

And this is the four children in, in the back on Aspen, and my husband is the little boy there, and that is his sister, Mrs. Ulman(?), who now lives in Glendale, Arizona. And she's the only one left alive.

SUSAN ROGERS: What's her first name?

MRS. LOUISE BLACK: N E L M A

SUSAN ROGERS: N E L M A

MRS. LOUISE BLACK: And she won't, I don't know why, but she's very difficult to get anything out of.

SUSAN ROGERS: Is she? Well then I won't even mark her down, then.

MRS. LOUISE BLACK: At least that's what her granddaughter says. They come to me for things. And this is the same, you see they had their own cows and their own everything else. Somewhere I have a darling picture of them all on horseback ______________ (looks for something, unable to pick up conversation)

MRS. LOUISE BLACK: Here, ah, I recognize my husband there. And I thought that perhaps I could find the old picture of Black Springs for you. Now this is going down the Louis Trail which goes into the Coconino Basin, which is near the Grand Canyon. I do know that it was just the cattle going from the summer range, ah, winter range to the summer range. And this is branding time.

SUSAN ROGERS: Did you ever live on any of these ranches or did you always stay in town?

MRS. LOUISE BLACK: I always stayed in town.

SUSAN ROGERS: And how long would he be gone?

MRS. LOUISE BLACK: Sometimes thirty days. 'Cause I know when, after the baby was born, I used to be rather nervous up there by myself. I felt the responsibility.

SUSAN ROGERS: Right.

MRS. LOUISE BLACK: There was a time when he was very ill with a bad ulcer, and he was home then for quite a long time. And then became the cattle inspector on there. And that was just about the period I know.

SUSAN ROGERS: Uh huh.

MRS. LOUISE BLACK: Ah, I thought there was some more. See that was the little cabin.

SUSAN ROGERS: Now where's that one?

MRS. LOUISE BLACK: Coconino Basin.

SUSAN ROGERS: Oh, uh huh.

MRS. LOUISE BLACK: And that was a rented range. And this is the summer one. He finally built that(?). The one that was there before was really something. Ah, no, windows. And all kinds of animals underneath the floor. To try to sleep there. I couldn't sleep. I mean I was too much of a city girl, I'm sure. I think it was a great mistake that I was born at that time. That was my cabin- was at Cameron. And these are up on the peaks quite high up. Ah, that was a little coyote that someone foolishly touched, and of course her mother wouldn't come back to the place. And Charles was so provoked; he said they'll die, so he brought them to the ranch and fed them with barley. And various people took them, but only one ever settled down. They got too, ah, severe, well you know rough and ________ and bitey.

And so I did have the pleasure, shall I say, of going in a hogan of Old Yellow Mexican's(?) second wife and seeing her weaving and seeing a cradle hung from the rafters, and that sort of thing which was nice. I mean I never asked to go in, but if I was asked and they weren’t, it was just like with the Hopis, I went. And they weren't too keen to have women, at least that was my impression. I really am looking for an old picture. This is up on Hart Prairie. This is, that's his family with a load of hay. They did a lot of haying up there.

SUSAN ROGERS: I think I've seen, I think this one _________.

MRS. LOUISE BLACK: Well that could be out there, that's what I wondered. I lent to a young lady a picture her husband wanted, I hope I've got it back. And maybe you have that, and it doesn't really matter, but this shows Black Springs and that's why. Well this is the last of the long horns being shipped out of Bellemont about 1923.

SUSAN ROGERS: Now, they are shipped out of Bellemont, not Flagstaff?

MRS. LOUISE BLACK: Uh huh.

SUSAN ROGERS: Well, why was that?

MRS. LOUISE BLACK: Well I think they had a good- there, a corral there, great big corral, because it was horribly cold, and the tents would leak because of the frost. But they could run them from Babbitts, from Cedar Ranch or through Kendrick Park, and then down to Bellemont, and ship. And perhaps I should mention that during the bootleg days at Kendrick Park were stills and sometimes there'd be a party that would go on for two or three days. And the cowboys would go through and drink this poison stuff, and then they'd come back and the party would still be going on. Kendrick Park was quite a place. There were two men here in town in an insane asylum from that darn stuff.

SUSAN ROGERS: Oh really? From the liquor you mean, the homemade liquor?

MRS. LOUISE BLACK: Yes. I won’t tell you who. This is sort of cute. Those are the four Blacks on a little horse, back there that they all loved.

SUSAN ROGERS: Look at those boots.

MRS. LOUISE BLACK: This is in 1945 at Hart Prairie, some difference. Ah, this is his brother Myron and himself in 1922. But that is out at Sun, out at the ranch. I can't tell you whether that would be out at Black Bill or if they still owned the place up on the mountain. His father also had what later became the Pump House. And so you see they lost _________. His father would always be restless.

This is an old picture. This is the CO Bar and the W Triangle __________ at Bellemont in 1934. I do have that date in, should teach us shouldn't it? This is him on a- that's in his backyard. I can’t imagine that now. There, here's something I was looking for. This is 1890. Matthew A. Black at Black Springs. You can't possibly make it look anything of today. There should be a better one in front of a log cabin, but I can't seem to find it. The log cabin has long since gone. But I sort of think they may have that out at the-

SUSAN ROGERS: The museum?

MRS. LOUISE BLACK: Uh huh. And that was a coyote he killed in the _______ meadow. But I guess perhaps-

SUSAN ROGERS: This is fairly recent.

MRS. LOUISE BLACK: Yeah, well it is. This was in the forties. He hit it with a .45 and did a good job. And it was, I realized it was where it should have been shot. And it was right where there were a lot of cattle. But ah, I will say this, is his attitude on predators changed. Ah, the longer he lived here, the more he began to feel there was something to be said for the upset in the ecology. He'd seen the government come in and poison all the prairie dogs and helped them. Then he saw how another animal then took over and became a pest. And he said, of course he couldn't be sorry for coyotes because he saw what they did if you were trying to make money on a cattle ranch. So he said I would have shot one if I ever found it near. But he said I never did believe in wholesale slaughter. And also he was not a hunter except for meat. When he was up at the ranch he might shoot a deer for meat. But he didn't allow the sport. So he was a real peculiar perhaps in his way.

I'm sorry I can't find another picture, but I think perhaps we've covered about everything.

SUSAN ROGERS: Okay. Now did he ever tell you any tales about some of the cattle drives or anything?

MRS. LOUISE BLACK: Well, I remember him telling, well of course this business that we hear about, this singing to the cattle on the night watch was really true. He said this was every time they had a big herd, and they had thousands sometimes, you know, that came out of here, they did stand night cattle drive, and they did sing. And this ______. And some of his favorite stories were Trailed To Mexico(?) and The Old Grey, or something. Some that I'm not too familiar with.

SUSAN ROGERS: Now did he even sing around you then?

MRS. LOUISE BLACK: No, he just whistled. He said he didn't have a singing voice.

SUSAN ROGERS: Just for the cattle, huh.

MRS. LOUISE BLACK: Just for the cattle. And you did ask somewhere if I remember any murders here. And I suppose the thing I remember was the year that he went east. A friend of ours thought he'd be interested to see a very fine Guernsey herd, the kind that they show, you know, at the stock shows at Madison Square Garden with the polished toe nails and everything. So he took him to, ah, I got a farm, which is near Ipswich, Massachusetts, to see these beautiful cattle. They are entirely different than a range. And one of the young men who was working on Mr. Merrill's(?) cattle then. They introduced him, and they said this gentleman comes from Arizona. And he said, "Saay, (sic), he said, "I don't suppose you know anything about that Hashknife feud that to the last man of Zane Grey's?" And he said, "Yes, I knew some of the Hashknife ." And I said, "But that's all past now." Famous last words. We came home, and that was when Mr. Singleton shot the Blevins boys. And I used to look down at the county jail when we, nights, and to see if the jury was still out. Of course as it turned out, there was someone on the jury that had been going with one of the brothers. So it was an unfair trial. But it made me feel very funny when I said those days have passed.

SUSAN ROGERS: Right. Okay. Is there anything else that you have notes down there and want to mention? You've done such a good job, I don't really need to prompt you.

MRS. LOUISE BLACK: Well I went over what you had to say, there's so much I, you asked about cemeteries. I'm sure everyone has told you that there used to be one at the foot of Mars Hill.

SUSAN ROGERS: Now is that when you were here or your husband must have told you?

MRS. LOUISE BLACK: No, it was his mother who told me her- that various people had been buried there, and she thought that when they, they didn't get them all moved , she was- you know _________.

SUSAN ROGERS: That's what I've heard. She believed that there are still some over there.

MRS. LOUISE BLACK: Well, I think she thinks her first husband's there or something.

SUSAN ROGERS: Oh really? Then he didn't get moved?

MRS. LOUISE BLACK: Yeah. I've never been able to find his grave so I don't know.

SUSAN ROGERS: Huh. Now, are the Blacks buried-

MRS. LOUISE BLACK: All over in Citizens Cemetery in a very unattractive plot right near the- I try to do things to it, but I'm afraid I don't do what I should. I don't worry too much about the dead.

SUSAN ROGERS: Right.

MRS. LOUISE BLACK: But it does make me sort of sad to see it look so darn crumbly and messy. And as fast as I clean it up or put in a new curb, why the city drives a truck over it in the winter 'cause it's right near the, you see. It's all right. But I, perhaps I'll get more ambitious some day and do something about it. Because he was always very loyal that way. Felt that it was respectful to keep it clean. And I suppose my attitude is, you know, just throw the ashes out wherever it becomes handy. But for his sake, I try to do that. I don't think I have anything further to add, truly.

SUSAN ROGERS: Okay, you want me to go ahead and switch it off then?

MRS. LOUISE BLACK: Yeah. (Turns it off then resumes.)

SUSAN ROGERS: I'm sorry 'cause I know there's lots of confusion about the different Blacks.

MRS. LOUISE BLACK: There were two Jim Blacks in this country. One was called A-1 Jim, came out of Missouri, and he worked for the A-1 outfit. And the other one was this James Lewis(?) Black who was Buckey O'Neill's deputy. As far as they knew as they bothered to inquire, they weren't related. Although I have found out that most of the Blacks were Scotch-Irish that came into Virginia. He lived down on the way to Rainbow Bridge. Someone has incised their name, James Black, or Jim Black. And we've had many inquiries from that man, Marsten. I don't know if he's still alive, who was trying to, the history as to who it was. And Billie Yost has said it must be A-1 Jim, not knowing of this Jim, and not realizing there were two. I do know that he covered the full of the reservation. I don't know. He had this interest in ore, and he found gold and various other things ______. Just before he was killed, he came in with the biggest load that had ever been assayed here. And drove it in here and didn’t have anywhere to pick it up, because he came from down around Tuzigoot, where the, Mrs. Black's, ah, sister and husband had a ranch. That was before Tuzigoot became a, you know a national. And that, I just thought that might help you to know that there were these two men. And they were great friends.

SUSAN ROGERS: They were?

MRS. LOUISE BLACK: So you see, this makes it even more confusing.

SUSAN ROGERS: Uh huh. But the James Lewis was the one that definitely was your family?

MRS. LOUISE BLACK: That's right. And then A-1 Jim I don't know much about. Except my husband finally sat down and wrote to this man and explained there were these two. And that he did not know which man's name would have been down there. Because they both were together so much.

SUSAN ROGERS: Might, be for both of them.

END OF INTERVIEW