JEWEL, LEONA, AND LAVOY McGEE INTERVIEW

   



   [BEGIN SIDE A]

   

   This is Brad Cole from Northern Arizona University.

It's March 11, 1998.  We're in the home of Jewel and

Leona McGee in Farmington, New Mexico.  Also present in

the room are Lavoy McGee, and Lew Steiger running the

sound and camera.  We're here working on the United

Indian Traders Association Oral History Project, and

we're pleased to have two generations of Indian traders

in the room with us, and we're going to ask them some

questions about their experiences.  [Since there are

three McGees present, they are identified by their

first names (Tr.)]

   

   Cole:  First off, I'm going to ask Leona when and

where were you born?

   

   Leona:  I was born in Sanford, Colorado, on July 22,

1918.

   

   Cole:  And when did you become involved in Indian

trading?

   

   Leona:  (laughs)  Well, I didn't get involved in it

until I met my husband, and was married, and went out

there to live.

   

   Cole:  And when was that?

   

   Leona:  That was, well, let's see....

   

   Cole:  When were you married?

   

   Leona:  That was September 19, 1937.

   

   Cole:  Did you ever imagine growing up as a young

child, that you'd end up working on a Navajo

Reservation?

   

   Leona:  No!  (laughs)  Didn't enter my head.

   

   Cole:  Do you have some fond memories of that?

   

   Leona:  Oh yes, we loved it out there.  You know,

the place we lived in and all, this old trading post

that was....  What was it, 'dobies?

   

   Jewel:  Mud.

   

   Leona:  Built adobes, mud.

   

   Jewel:  Wooden forms, like cement.

   

   Leona:  And the roof with poles and then dirt on top

of that.  And of course that was real exciting in the

house, with all this dirt up there.  We'd be just fine

until it rained, and then here would come little mud

puddles down the walls.  Oh, it wasn't a real

elaborate, fancy place, but it was very comfortable,

and we had a big living room and a post in the middle

of the room to hold the roof up, and a fireplace.  When

we first went out there, we didn't have a bathroom, any

convenience like that.  It was going you-know-where.

(laughs)

   

   Jewel:  The outhouse.

   

   Leona:  But anyway, why, afterwards we added on a

little bit and had a new kitchen and all, and then made

the old kitchen into a spare bedroom.  And then we had

a bathroom then, too.  Of course when I first went out

there, it looked kinda--here's these men been batchin'

there, you know, and things weren't too (laughs) nice,

but when I went in the bedroom, the bed had all four

legs sitting in a tin can.  And I believe it was

kerosene inside.

   

   Jewel:  Kerosene, yeah.

   

   Leona:  Kerosene in the bottom of the can.  And I

said, "Jewel, what in the world is that?!"  Well, he

said he did that to keep the bugs from crawlin' into

bed with him.  And one night he could feel something

and kicked the covers off, and there was a great big

centipede crawlin' on his leg.  And of course you know

what that did to me.  Then, too, of course we took care

of that and got that taken care of and fought the bugs--

even to bed bugs.  Does anybody else tell you that?

(laughter)  Oh!  I think Jill Chimberto [phonetic

spelling] had a lot of that.  My sister-in-law was out

there.  She said that was awful.  And the birds would

carry them into those pole things there, you know, and

make nests.  And we had to doctor those.  Oh dear, it

was quite a problem, but we managed and got rid of it.

   Then every time I prepared a meal and we'd sit down

to eat, Jewel, before he ate, he'd always do this

(makes gesture) on the top of the table.  I said, "Why

are you doing that?!"  "Oh," he said, "that's habit.  I

had to rake off the sand."  I nearly had a fit.  But

anyway, I finally got him to quit doin' that.  (laughs)

   But we enjoyed it, and our children enjoyed it out

there.  Lavoy, when he was a baby, and I had him in the

bedroom in a crib, I went in to check on him, he was

asleep, and what should I find in there but along the

baseboard was the biggest bull snake you ever laid eyes

on.  What was it, four or five feet long?

   

   Jewel:  Yeah, a big one.

   

   Leona:  Oh, I just nearly died!  So we had our fun

times. (laughs)  I ran in the store, I told Jewel,

"Come quick!"  But they would come in the house,

hunting birds.  They'd get through, if there was a

little hole, why, here they'd come on down in the

house.

   Anyway, for the most part, we enjoyed it.  We didn't

have a TV, but the evenings were wonderful.  You could,

oh, before it got dark, you could hear an Indian

singing away, riding on a horse, going somewhere, and

just singing to the top of his voice.  You could hear

the coyotes, and it was really quite nice.  We enjoyed

the peace and tranquility that was there.

   

   Cole:  Did you work in the store some?

   

   Leona:  Oh, once in a while.  I didn't do a whole

lot, but I helped some.  I should have done more, I

guess.  What I should have done was learn to speak

Navajo, and I didn't make a real effort.  I know a few

things, but not like I should have.

   

   Jewel:  I kept her busy runnin' back and forth.  I'd

have to have her come stay in the store if I had to go

outside and do somethin'.

   

   Cole:  Did you have a nickname?

   

   Leona:  No, not that I know of!  (laughter)  They

never did tell me.  I didn't have one from home.

   

   Cole:  When did you move to Farmington?

   

   Leona:  Oh, let's see, when Lavoy was six years old.

   

   Jewel:  No, we didn't.  Your folks sent him one year

or so to school.

   

   Leona:  Not the first year, did they?

   

   Jewel:  Yes, they did.

   

   Leona:  Well, I guess they did.

   

   Jewel:  They lived in our house there in Kirtland

and sent Lavoy.

   

   Leona:  Well, yes they did, I'm all mixed up there.

My parents come and lived in our home there at

Kirtland.

   

   Jewel:  Just one year, wasn't it?

   

   Lavoy:  I don't remember.

   

   Leona:  And Lavoy went to school and they took care

of him.  They had quite a time with Lavoy--he'd try to

surprise 'em and milk the cow.  (laughs) And do a few

little things.  But anyway, they took good care of him.

And of course, we had to....  Let's see, I'm tryin' to

think if Patsy was born--were we out there?  Well,

anyway, [it was] two years later before we had another

one.  But I didn't think they were there for two years,

were they?  Didn't seem like it.

   

   Jewel:  I don't know, but Patsy was born out there,

and then Janene [phonetic spelling] was born over at

Fort Wingate when we was over there on that store.  So

Patsy would have had to been when we was still at Red

Rock.

   

   Cole:  Lavoy, when and where were you born?

   

   Lavoy:  I was born in Farmington, so I guess I'm

pretty native to this area.  Born and raised here, in

the Reservation.

   

   Cole:  It sounds like at least for your first six

years you lived at the trading post?  Do you remember

anything about that?

   

   Lavoy:  We were at Red Rock, and of course I was

pretty young then, but you reminisce a little bit and

remember some things.  It was always fun exploring and

being in the store and being around the Indians.  A lot

of adventure out there for a youngster.  Those were

good years.

   

   Jewel:  Well even after they got moved to school,

why, they'd come out on the weekends.  They always

liked to go out there and play and wander over the

country.  (chuckles)

   

   Lavoy:  Oh yeah, we had our friends that we'd do

things with, so it was good years.

   

   Leona:  Lavoy played with the little boy that lived

on the hill right close to the store there.  They

played together a lot.

   

   Cole:  Did you have a horse, ride a horse at all?

   

   Lavoy:  Don't ever remember havin' a horse out

there.  I don't think we had horses.

   

   Cole:  You'd mentioned that you had playmates, et

cetera.  Did you also work in the store, too?  Did they

have chores and stuff for you to do?

   

   Lavoy:  Oh, yeah, sweep floors and clean warerooms

and take care of the stock.  And of course [we] did

more and more as we got older.  So a lot of my early

years were in the store.

   

   Cole:  Did you at some point think that that was

what you were going to do when you grew up, was be a

trader also?

   

   Lavoy:  I don't remember ever thinkin' about it

much.  I don't think kids think very far ahead, and I

don't think I did that either.  I don't think I ever

thought about ownin' a store later on.

   

   Cole:  When did you actually begin to become more

fully employed in the trading business?

   

   Lavoy:  Well, during my high school years I'd work

out there summers.  Dad and his partners would employ

me, so I was summer help.  Then I went to college and

I'd come back periodically to earn a little money and

worked out there during some college years.

   

   Cole:  Where did you go to college?

   

   Lavoy:  Went to college at Brigham Young University.

Then I graduated in the agricultural sciences.  When I

come out of college, I went to work for the Forest

Service in Cortez.  And I was there a short time, and

here come dad and Uncle Roscoe, and they needed some

help out at Red Mesa and were willing to sell me an

interest to come out and run the place.  So we left the

Forest Service and went out to Red Mesa in the fall of

1965.

   

   Cole:  How did you buy that interest?  Did you pay

cash for that?  Or did you work into it?

   

   Lavoy:  We just signed a note, and made payments.

   

   Cole:  How much of an interest did you have?

   

   Lavoy:  I think we started out with a quarter,

25 percent.

   

   Cole:  Was it Red Mesa at that time?

   

   Lavoy:  It was Red Mesa.

   

   Cole:  What was that trading post like in 1965?

   

   Lavoy:  That country used to be quite remote

country.  You'd leave Shiprock and head out towards

Northern Arizona, towards Kayenta, and you're out in

the boonies.  But just recently, a highway had been

built out through that country.  And just a few years

prior to us buying an interest out there, they had

moved the old trading post up onto the highway.  So by

the time I got there, it was a fairly modern building,

and it was a self-service store, so it wasn't like the

old-type stores.  And the Indians still were old-type

Indians:  the highway was just there, and they were new

to the highway and all that, too.  There were still a

lot of "long hairs" and a lot of people that couldn't

speak much English.

   

   Cole:  What kind of transportation were they using

mainly?

   

   Lavoy:  A lot of 'em had pickups and still a lot of

'em used wagons and horses, but there were a few

pickups around then.  Everybody didn't have a pickup,

but it seemed like every family seemed to have access

to one and got around pretty good.

   

   Cole:  Did you live at Red Mesa then?

   

   Lavoy:  Oh, yes, lived there and started our family

and lived there quite a few years, until my kids got up

till thirteen, fourteen years of age.

   

   Cole:  Where did they go to school?

   

   Lavoy:  They went down to Teec Nos Pos, went down to

the school down there.  That was about fifteen miles

away from us, and they went there for the first few

years.  And then eventually a school was built right at

Red Mesa, and then they went there, until we moved to

town.

   

   Cole:  Were those BIA schools, or tribal schools?

   

   Lavoy:  No, the one at Teec Nos Pos was a BIA

school.  When they built Red Mesa, it was a public

school.

   

   Cole:  How big of an operation was Red Mesa?

   

   Lavoy:  It was a pretty good little store.  I think

we had about four employees, besides myself, so we were

an up and goin' place, and kept pretty busy.

   

   Cole:  Now, did you eventually own more than that

25 percent interest?

   

   Lavoy:  I ended up ownin' it all.  But it was first

off a quarter percent, then a half, and then all of it.

   

   Cole:  What types of market did you have there?  Did

you still do a lot of business with livestock?

   

   Lavoy:  Our market there was for the Indians.  We

were there to serve Indian needs.  Even though the

highway was there, and the tourists were starting to

use the highway a lot, and it was a popular tourist

road, still, we were an Indian trading post, and we

supplied all their general needs, from groceries and

mutton, to dry goods, hardware, feed, gasoline--

whatever.  So we were a full-service trading post.  It

was a good area for livestock, we bought lots of wool,

mohair and a lot of cattle out in that area, and they

raised pretty good cattle out there.

   

   Cole:  How did you get the animals to market?

   

   Lavoy:  The closest sale barn was in Cortez, and

sometimes we would transport 'em there ourselves.

Sometimes the sale barn would send a big truck, and

make a little route and stop and buy our stuff.  So

both those ways.

   

   Cole:  Now, were you involved in any stock

improvement projects yourself?

   

   Lavoy:  Well, like dad mentioned, in his interview,

we supplied a lot of billy goats and a lot of rams for

the sheep, and we also sold bulls over the years.  So

mostly with sires.  Red Mesa was an area that had a lot

of goats, probably more goats than lots of areas, and

there was a lot of demand for that mohair out from that

country, because out in this country, people only

sheared once a year, so when they did their shearin',

it was a good long staple.  Lots of the other areas,

like Texas and so on, they'd shear twice a year, so it

wasn't near the nice staple that our mohair was.  And

they had good quality of goats, so a good market for

mohair.  (aside about tape)

   

   Cole:  Where did you sell your mohair?

   

   Lavoy:  We'd have buyers who would contact us and

bid on our mohair.  We had several people that were

interested, so people would contact us, or we'd know of

buyers, and check for the best price.

   

   Cole:  What were the living conditions like for your

family at that time period?

   

   Lavoy:  We had a little cinder block store with an

attached cinder block dwelling that was quite

comfortable.  We had nice facilities.  At that point in

time we had inside toilets and inside running water, so

it was pretty nice.

   

   Cole:  Did you have electricity?

   

   Lavoy:  We had electricity, and of course back in

those days we didn't have commercial electricity out

there, we had to generate our own.  We had two old

Whittee [generators] out there that just made a lot of

racket and run all the time, and were quite somethin'

to keep goin'.

   

   Cole:  And what did they run on?

   

   Lavoy:  They run on (Jewel:  Diesel.) diesel.  Yeah,

diesel fuel.

   

   Cole:  So did you have diesel delivery out there by

then, or did you have to....

   

   Lavoy:  Yeah, we had large tanks that they'd come

and keep full.

   

   Cole:  And what would you say the living conditions

in the mid-1960's were like for your Navajo customers?

   

   Lavoy:  Oh, they had very simple conditions.  Most

of 'em lived in the hogans that they'd built.  A lot of

'em, by that time, were makin' little frame homes and

what-not--simple, but comfortable.

   

   Cole:  Do you speak Navajo?

   

   Lavoy:  I didn't learn Navajo like my dad and some

of the older ones.  It seemed like there was too many

people at that time that were speakin' English

(laughter), so I had too many people talkin' English to

me now.  I did pretty good in the store and with

tradin' Navajo items, and those kind of things, but you

get me out of the store, and in somebody's home, and

they could lose me pretty quick.  And if I went to

church where religious things were bein' taught, I

didn't know a thing.  So I did pretty good in the

store, and that kind of Navajo, but that was about it.

   

   Cole:  Did you have a nickname?

   

   Lavoy:  I knew you was gonna ask that question.

I've been tryin' to think.  I've been called a couple

of things, but mostly they called me by my name.  Even

a lot of the old-time people that couldn't speak any

English, they'd murder my first name Lavoy--they'd say

that lots of ways.  Some of 'em called me Naalzheehí

biye’.  That was because years and years ago, Dad was

out at Red Mesa, and he was known for huntin'.

   

   Jewel:  I trapped coyotes all the time.

   

   Lavoy:  Yeah.  The name for "hunter" is naalzheehí.

And biye’ is for "his boy [son].”  So I was Naalzheehí

biye’.  But mostly they called me by my name.

   

   Jewel:  I was Naalzheehí sání, and he was Naalzheehí

yázhí–the "old trapper" and the "young."

   

   Cole:  I've gotta switch and ask Jewel a question

about trapping coyotes.  How many would you trap in a

year?  Maybe just tell something about how that worked.

   

   Jewel:  Oh, I didn't catch very many--they're hard

to catch!  (laughs)  I'd catch, oh, probably two or

three a week when I was out trappin' all the time in

the winter.

   

   Cole:  Was there a pretty good market for their

pelts?

   

   Jewel:  It don't seem like much, but the $2.50 was

quite a bit at that time, $3.00, for a pelt.

   

   Cole:  What other kinds of things would you hunt?

   

   Jewel:  Oh, there's bobcats--I used to catch a few

bobcats.  Skunks--but I never did like the skunk deal.

(laughter)

   

   Cole:  Was there any bigger game out there that

you'd hunt?

   

   Jewel:  No.  That was all--coyotes was about the

biggest.

   

   Cole:  Well, Lavoy, how would you describe the

Navajo-Anglo trade relationship to someone unfamiliar

with the enterprise?

   

   Lavoy:  You mean my relationship with my Navajo

customers?

   

   Cole:  Right, how you traded.  Was it still....

   

   Lavoy:  You know, we had a very close relationship

with the Indian people.  They were our friends.  I

enjoyed and liked them, and most of them enjoyed and

liked me.  All of 'em respected me.  We treated them

very well, and very honestly.  I've said before that

maybe not everybody liked me, but everybody respected

me.  We really enjoyed our customers.  (phone rings,

and continues ringing for a full minute)  Sometimes it

was hard to do things for good business reasons,

because you were caught up in the emotions of dealing

with your friends and responding to needs that they

had.  But we had very close personal relationships with

our Indian people.

   

   Cole:  Were you still mainly a credit business in

the 1960's?

   

   Lavoy:  Yes, we did lots of credit--still did lots

of credit.  When we first started out, out there, of

course we still did a lot of livestock credit--some on

cattle, mostly on lambs and wool and mohair.  By that

time there were some incentive payments from the

government that come for lambs and wool, and those

checks meant quite a lot, so we still did a lot of

credit at that time.  And of course at that time,

Social Security checks were startin' to come to 'em,

and welfare was startin' to show up more and more, and

most people credited on those things.  So, yes, we did

lots of credit.

   

   Cole:  And still quite a bit with pawn, too, then?

   

   Lavoy:  We did a lot of pawn, too.  We had a large

vault that was just chuck full of turquoise and Indian

artifacts and things.  Did a lot of pawn.  (someone

finally answers phone)

   

   Cole:  So you would have started in the trading

business when you started to see a lot more of the

government programs come in.  How did that change trade

or change the whole Navajo social condition?  Did you

see changes with that?

   

   Lavoy:  It put a lot more cash in the economy, for

one thing, with the Social Security checks and the

welfare checks, and of course there'd been some

railroad work, and just a lot more money in it, and it

put more money in the people's hands.  You know, they

were able to buy more things and enjoy more things than

they used to.  I think they enjoyed it, and it helped

their lifestyles a lot.

   

   Cole:  Could you describe how the pawn business

worked?

   

   Lavoy:  Well, if people were desiring some credit,

and they couldn't get credit otherwise on an open

account, they'd bring a piece of their property and

give it to us as security for their credit.  So the

pawn was just a security that they would discharge

their financial obligation.  So we'd take a piece of

jewelry or a belt, or whatever, and advance 'em the

credit or the cash loan that they needed.  I think the

tribal regulations at that time, we had to hold it for

six months, but it was really meaningless, because it

was seldom redeemed in six months.  There was

continuing payments and continuing credit on those

pieces.  So it was just security so they could have

some credit.

   

   Cole:  And then would you have other credit, also--

just straight credit?

   

   Lavoy:  Sometimes we'd just have open credit, just

on open account.  And most of those open account

credits [were granted] when we knew that something was

coming down the line so they could pay us back--like a

monthly check, or wool in the spring, or lambs in the

fall.  So they were given advance credit on those

things.  Sometimes if they'd get up to their credit

limit, then they'd give us some security in pawn, you

know, for a little extra credit.

   

   Cole:  Did you deal in any feed at all for animals?

   

   Lavoy:  Oh yeah, we had a large hay barn.  We kept

our hay barn full most of the time, and sold hay

mostly, but in the store we kept grain and corn and

that kind of stuff, too.

   

   Cole:  Where did the hay come from?

   

   Lavoy:  Mostly here in the valley, and Kirtland,

Waterflow, and this part of the country down in San

Juan Valley.

   

   Cole:  I'm sure you had a lease on the trading post.

   

   Lavoy:  We had twenty-five-year leases at that time,

and it seemed like twenty-five years was a long time

when you started out.  It seemed like those years kinda

went by the way.  So we had long-term leases.

   

   Cole:  Were you able to achieve another lease, then,

when your twenty-five-year lease....

   

   Lavoy:  We did.

   

   Jewel:  We didn't have much trouble after that,

gettin' our leases.

   

   Lavoy:  No, we never had any trouble at our place.

You know, we had a good relationship with the people

and [we were] well liked, and the local council knew

pretty well, pushed our leases through, and we didn't

have any trouble renewing.

   

   Cole:  How would one go about getting a lease or a

lease renewal?

   

   Lavoy:  Well, in these later years, the procedure

got a little bit more difficult.  They put more of the

responsibility on the local chapters.  So if you didn't

have a good relationship with your local people, it was

hard to go to Window Rock and get anything done there.

So they kinda brought all of those decisions right home

to us, to the local chapter.  So usually that's where

you'd have to start, and get some signatures and

recommendations, then just walk it through the tribal

government.

   

   Cole:  If you were to characterize the Navajo

economic system, how would you do that? as opposed to

the white man's economic system?

   

   Lavoy:  Well, of course, now it's about the same as

ours because it's mostly a cash economy everywhere,

everything revolves around the dollar.  Back in the

early times, it was mostly a barter system.  You know,

people had something of value--whether it was

livestock, rugs, jewelry, or whatever--and they

converted those things into cash or goods.

   

   Cole:  Would you say that there are any

characteristics that traders have in common?

   

   Lavoy:  Well, I think the traders, as a fraternity,

were a pretty diverse bunch, really.  (Jewel:  Uh-huh.)

But I think most of the good traders were people that

cared for their people, cared for the customers.  And

that'd probably be the main characteristic, that would

just be people that cared for 'em, they were willing to

get involved with 'em and work with 'em and see that

their needs were met while ours were being met, too.

   

   Cole:  When you were trading in the 1960's--can you

maybe talk about some of the more popular items in the

store.  And also, maybe, if you could think back to

when you worked for your dad as a younger man, was

there any change in what people wanted the most?

   

   Lavoy:  Well, it seemed like back in the early days,

of course, as you can guess, it was the basics that

were the most important.  You know, flours, lards,

sugars, salts, coffees, and that.  Those are the staple

things--you just had to have those things.  And of

course as they had more money, and as we were able to

get better supplies, then we went into a more diverse

range of things.  When we left there, of course, we

were butchering a lot of meat, selling a lot of mutton,

and a lot of dairy products, and ice cream cases and

just like uptown.  So it went from the basics and about

all they could afford, to some of the things like you

see in our modern-day supermarkets.

   

   Jewel:  ______________ dry goods changed, used to

sell cloth for the dresses, ____________ once they got

to buyin' the other stuff.

   

   Lavoy:  Yeah, we used to sell a lot of cloth, a lot

of goods for the women.  It seems like everything the

women wore, they made their things--you know, their

velveteen blouses, the calicos for their skirts and

things.  Sold a lot of that, a lot of that--big item

for us.  And in recent years we weren't sellin' so much

of that anymore--they were buyin' ready-made clothes

and goin' to town.  Dry goods used to be a huge part of

our business until people got more vehicles and more

cash in their hands, and the big mass merchandisers

were in town, and that sure cut into our being able to

sell those things to 'em anymore.

   

   Cole:  About what time did you start to get the

ability to have cold food cases, like you mentioned ice

cream?

   

   Lavoy:  Well, one of the limiting factors was we had

to generate our own electricity.  Then you started

gettin' the big walk-in boxes and the big freezers, and

those pull a lot of electricity.  We had so much

trouble with our Woody light plants, because every time

you'd add a new box, it's harder to generate enough

electricity to keep up with everything.  It seems like

here at the end, if all our boxes come on at the same

time, we'd have to run around and pull somethin' off

until the generators could catch up.  Then we'd go pull

things back on.  It was kind of a juggling thing.  So

once we got commercial electricity, we were pretty well

able to do about anything we wanted to, because of

power needs.

   

   Cole:  And when did that come in, do you remember?

   

   Lavoy:  Oh, let's see, must have been in the early

1970's sometime, that we got electricity out there.  So

it's pretty limiting if you don't have the power to run

some of that refrigeration.

   

   Cole:  And were there any things that your family

would do for entertainment in the evenings?

   

   Lavoy:  Oh, evenings were fun.  There's always

hiking to do, playing around out in the corrals, out in

the barns, picnics.  We were out at Red Rock a lot.

Red Rock was just a few miles from the mountain, and we

used to go up the mountain a lot.  We just had a good

time, enjoyed each other.  It was a great place to

raise a family.  It was just us and we just interacted

off each other.

   

   Cole:  In your younger days at Red Rock when you

were a kid, did you ever do any sheep herding?

   

   Lavoy:  Well, I don't think I herded sheep like an

occupation, but I was always with people that were

herding sheep, you know.  I followed people around, or

with my friends or something like that.  And of course

in our own corrals, we always had livestock in our own

corrals that we'd boughten and things, so we had always

plenty of stock around.

   

   Cole:  You mentioned butchering.  Did you actually

do the butchering yourself at the store?

   

   Lavoy:  I didn't do it personally.  Seemed like

there was always some Navajos around that enjoyed

taking a knife and doing the butchering for you,

because when they did that, you know, they got (Jewel:

The insides.).  They got all the insides and stuff, and

we got the carcass for the store.  So they were happy

to do that for the insides and the organs.

   

   Cole:  Were you able to then keep the meat

refrigerated?  (Lavoy: Oh, yeah.)  Or did it sell fast

enough?

   

   Lavoy:  No, we had walk-in boxes at that time.  Just

bring it inside and put it in the walk-in box and cool

it down.  Before that, you know, we'd just butcher

enough that would sell as we butchered it.

   

   Cole:  How would that work when you were at the

trading post, Jewel?, before refrigeration, when you

butchered animals.

   

   Jewel:  We had diesel plants.

   

   Cole:  Oh, you did, too, then?

   

   Jewel:  Yeah.  We had refrigeration, but of course,

like Lavoy said, not near as good as commercial.

   

   Cole:  Can you think of any humorous things that

happened in your trading post career?

   

   Lavoy:  You know, we enjoyed our trading post days,

and we had a lot of fun.  The Indians are a fun people,

they're a laughing people, and it seemed like we were

always kidding each other and just having a good time.

One thing that I've always remembered:  Years and years

ago out at Red Rock, our front door of the store.  We'd

just closed off one half of a double door and put

screen in it.  And we hadn't got through puttin' all

the trim in, and the little cross bars, so people could

see it was screen.  And one of Dad's good customers was

in the store, and he got through with his business and

went bee-linin' out the door, and walked right through

the screen.  I remember that vividly to this day, and

how funny that was (chuckles), to have him walk into

that with his nose and brim of his hat.  We still laugh

about that when we think about it.  Good times.  Indian

people are happy people.

   

   Jewel:  I remember humorous things.  When the squaws

started first buyin' brassieres, they'd come in and ask

me what size they wanted.  (laughter)  That was kind of

comical--you didn't know what to do.  (laughter)

   

   Cole:  Well, Jewel, the last interview we had, we

were talkin' about the medicine man, Molian.  You told

us about the incident with the weights, and wondered if

you had any other experiences with that person.

   

   Jewel:  Tell 'em about the little kid that got lost.

   

   Leona:  You tell 'em.

   

   Jewel:  Some little girl in Aztec got lost--or

kidnapped.

   

   Leona:  No, a little boy.

   

   Jewel:  And they called Bill Evans and got me to

tell the old man out there, Molian, if he could find

her.  And he sent back, he sent word, yeah, if you'd

just get him a piece of her clothing, why, he could do

it.

   

   Leona:  It was a little two-year-old boy.

   

   Jewel:  And he did.  And he said, "He's down where

the Mexicans are--big hats."  He didn't know just

where, but he said, "He's all right, he'll be back."

Sure enough, he was.  That's where he was at.  They'd

picked him up and took him.

   

   Steiger:  How'd they get him back?

   

   Jewel:  Well, they were hunting him, I guess.

Somebody must have told about it.  Authorities went and

got him, of course.

   

   Leona:  Well, he doesn't tell it quite all.

(chuckles)  This little boy was playing in Aztec there,

along by the road, and this couple went by.  He was

working there in the oil business or shops--mechanic or

whatever.  Anyway, they'd see this little child out

there, and they had just lost a little child, and they

were so grieved over it.  Well, they were leaving, and

they went by this day--they got friendly with the

little boy, and he went willingly with them, and they

took him.  And then when Molian....  They decided to,

they'd heard--the officers and all--had heard that he

could solve problems, you know, and help you find

things, like he did for us.  So they thought, well,

they'd just ask him.  And of course when they gave him

the little shirt--they brought a shirt in, of the

child's–Molian asked for that–and he held it and would

close his eyes and bow his head and do sort of a little

chant.  He said that the child was down where the big

hats are, but he was all right, he was still alive, he

was well.  So the authorities then....  Well, they had

a neighbor that had become a little suspicious of them,

because they knew they had lost this baby--or I don't

know how big the child was--and then all of a sudden

here was this child.  And they had read in the paper or

heard about this one missing in Aztec.  So they turned

it in to the authorities, and they found him and

returned him, and all was well.  And the people who he

was stole from, they apologized to them and all, and

the people didn't press charges or anything, just let

it go, because they were so thankful to get their

little boy back, and he was well and strong and

everything.

   

   Steiger:  Well, this guy, Molian–are there

contemporary guys who have that same ability?  Or was

he just kind of special, like a psychic or something?

   

   Jewel:  He's the only one I know of, out in that

country.  You ever have anybody like that down in Red

Mesa?

   

   Lavoy:  No.

   

   Leona:  Sometimes you run into people that are sort

of psychic, I think.  He was.

   

   Cole:  Was he a regular customer, Jewel?

   

   Jewel: Yes, oh yes, he was raised there.  The

Indians all knew he could do those things, and he was

used quite a bit.

   

   Cole:  Do you have any idea about how old he was at

that time?

   

   Jewel:  Well, he was old when I went out there.  He

was probably in his seventies when I knew him first.

   

   Cole:  Lavoy, when did you join the United Indian

Traders Association?

   

   Lavoy:  Well, it seemed like the store was already a

member when I went out at Red Mesa, and we just

continued bein' a member.  So it wasn't a matter of

joining initially, we just was a member when we went

there.

   

   Cole:  Did you ever hold office in the organization?

   

   Lavoy:  I served on the board of directors a number

of times for a number of years, and still am on the

board.  And I was president in 1977.

   

   Cole:  Do you remember some of the bigger issues the

Association dealt with when you were a member?

   

   Lavoy:  Well, the Association was formed originally

to really help with the arts and crafts end of the

business, to make sure that people could continue

making arts and crafts, and to ensure that arts and

crafts were authentically Indian.  And as the years

went by, the Association developed into a little bit

more than that.  It become an association that looked

after our business interests and made sure things went

smoothly for us--leases and regulations and whatever

other litigations we might have.  So it become really

our legal arm, for our association.  Of course they

fought a tax issue at one time in Arizona, a sales tax

issue, and we won--there's no sales tax on the

Reservation at this time.  Of course there was always

lease negotiations and regulation changes.  And then

during the DNA [Dinébe’iiná Náhiilna’Bee

Agha’diit’aahí] years and the FTC [Federal Trade

Commission] years, the Association had quite a hand in

battling some things and puttin' in some input.

   

   Cole:  When you say the DNA years, what is the DNA,

and what time period?

   

   Lavoy:  Well, the DNA was a bunch of lawyers.  I

don't think they were part of the tribe, I think they

were just a bunch of lawyers that were out to change

things and to see that so-called wrongs were made

right, and to make things different.  They were just

out there stirrin' up problems and lookin' for causes,

and they caused a lot of problems.

   

   Cole:  Do you remember when that organization first

came on to the tribe?

   

   Lavoy:  I don't remember the years, it must have

been in the mid-seventies sometime.

   

   Cole:  And then were you involved in the Association

when the FTC hearings took place?

   

   Lavoy:  Yeah, I think I was probably on the board at

that time.  We was involved in negotiations with them,

and discussions and input.  I don't think we did

ourselves much good with those people.

   

   Cole:  Do you remember any part of the case dealing

with endangered species bird feathers?

   

   Lavoy:  Oh, about all I know is what I read in the

paper.  Seemed like in our stores--I like to call our

stores "the meat and potatoes" stores.  We weren't into

the arts and crafts so much, but there were some

problems with people killing eagles and gettin' eagle

feathers.  And I remember the Feds were out to put a

stop to that, and I think probably rightfully so.

   

   Cole:  To sort of digress for a second:  At Red Mesa

did you do much of an arts and crafts business at all?

Or was that sort of an aside?

   

   Lavoy:  Well, we had our jewelry department inside.

We had tourists that stopped, so we had our jewelry

case and sold quite a bit of it.  And of course we

bought things from the Indians.  We bought rugs, we'd

had a pretty good [market?] in rugs--a lot of good

weavers out there.  And we sold a lot of our rugs right

there at the store, and then we had lots of dealers who

would come by and pick up rugs from us, too.  So we

were into arts and crafts, but that was a small part of

our business.

   

   Cole:  Did you have a pretty good tourism business?

   

   Lavoy:  Lots of that.  Every year that highway got a

little busier out that way, and quite a few people

stopped in.  So the tourists were a pretty good

business.

   

   Cole:  Do you remember any specific weavers or

artisans that stand out at Red Mesa?

   

   Jewel:  Oh, yes, we had some good weavers out there,

some families that put out real good rugs.  The fact

is, there's one behind me on the wall that was made by

the Katy [phonetic spelling] family, and they're famous

for the Red Mesa rugs that were made with the natural

colors.  You [can] see the natural vegetable colors in

that rug behind me.  So they put out that kind of

distinctive rug.  Had some others that put out the reds

and oranges that we call "the Red Mesas."  Had another

family that learned how to do the Two Grey Hills

design--put out some real good Two Grey Hills.  So we

had some real quality weavers out there.

   

   Cole:  Was there one particular kind of rug that Red

Mesa was known for then?

   

   Jewel:  Red Mesa Outline.

   

   Lavoy:  The Red Mesa Outline, that rug was named

after us.

   

   Jewel:  This one, like this one.

   

   Lavoy:  It's kinda like the one over here to my

left.

   

   Steiger:  Boy, that's beautiful.

   

   Leona:  I like the outline, it's pretty.

   

   Cole:  To switch back a little bit here:  How would

you describe the workings of the Traders Association?

   

   Lavoy:  We felt like that when we banded together,

that we were an important voice for our needs.  And if

we'd been just fighting some of these things, just one

single voice, we wouldn't have accomplished very much.

But united, we were able to come up with some funds and

fight some things and help our causes in lots of ways.

So it was a good organization.

   

   Jewel:  What is it they say?  "United we stand"?

(Lavoy:  Uh-huh.)  "Divided we fall."  That's just

kinda true.

   

   Lavoy:  We've always felt that we had a real good

relationship with the Navajo tribe.  Individual traders

and the Association, we got along with the tribe real

well.  Seemed like we had more trouble with the federal

government, the BIA and what-not.  Seemed like they

were the ones that we were fightin'.  But those guys

were most of the Easterners that would come out here

and fill these staff positions.  We called 'em

"Washington do-gooders."  But our relationship with the

tribe was good, and we could work things out, and we

always had the attitude, "Well, the trader's always

gonna be here, and the tribe's always gonna be here,

and things will be all right.  These other guys will

come and go."  And that's pretty much what happened

until this FTC thing come, and the DNA.  Then when you

get legal minds and lawyers doin' things, they can stir

up things that have lasting effects, and not always

good.

   

   Steiger:  What have been some of the effects of all

of that, that went on?

   

   Lavoy:  Well, one thing was, we did a thriving

business on the Reservation with pawn.  And after they

got through with us, almost all the traders on the

Reservation quit taking pawn.  So what that did is, it

drove that business off of the Reservation.  And now

you can go around the perimeter of the Reservation now,

and in towns, and just see a whole proliferation of

pawn shops.  And the bad thing is, people couldn't take

care of their business there, and the people in here

were probably much quicker to sell their article if it

was not redeemed on time.  We never wanted to sell

their stuff.  If people had a nice silver belt, for

instance, it wasn't in our interest to call it dead

pawn and sell it.  We'd rather have it in their hands,

where it's business back and forth, all the time, you

know, year after year.  They just took that business

away from us, and it took that option away from the

people, and the people weren't happy with it.  But they

changed the regs [regulations] so bad that it was not

possible for us to do it anymore and be profitable, so

we quit doin' it and it went off the Rez [Reservation].

   

   Cole:  Do you remember at all, were some of your

regular customers surprised when this happened?  Or did

they understand what was going on?

   

   Lavoy:  We tried to tell 'em, but I don't know if

they really understood what was goin' on.  About all

most of 'em knew was that we wouldn't do it anymore.

   

   Cole:  How about the Association, as far as a social

organization?  Did it fill a role in that regard?

   

   Lavoy:  Well, every year, at least once a year, we'd

have an annual meeting.  That annual meeting would

rotate between Flagstaff, Farmington, or Gallup, and we

always had a big dinner and social at that time.  It

was quite a yearly highlight.  It was a fun time to

look forward to and to go to.

   

   Cole:  Did the Association ever work for selling

commodities, as a buying and selling arm, for the

different traders?

   

   Lavoy:  To my knowledge, no.  I think in the

beginning that they’d probably obtained some silver and

stuff, and would provide it for the traders to buy for

their Indians, but that was in the early days, and to

what extent that happened, I'm not sure.  Do you

[know], Dad?

   

   Jewel:  Yeah, they used to--the Traders Association

handled the silver squares, and sold that to the trader

for silver.  That was about all the things that they

ever did.

   

   Cole:  Where would they buy the silver at, do you

know?

   

   Jewel:  Oh, from the government, I guess.  They used

to get a lot of Mexican dollars and sell, too.  They

were about as cheap as the squares we used to buy.

   

   Cole:  And the Association sold the Mexican dollars?

   

   Jewel:  Yeah, they got some, they'd handle it,

supply 'em to traders.

   

   Cole:  Did you handle that?

   

   Jewel:  Yeah.

   

   Cole:  Did you have many jewelers?

   

   Jewel:  No, not very many, just a few that made

bracelets and a few things like that.  We didn't have a

big demand for 'em, but we had it.

   

   Cole:  How about your store, Lavoy?  Did you see

much?

   

   Lavoy:  There weren't many around there back in the

early days, that were jewelers.  I don't know where the

people lived--probably in the Shiprock area a lot, that

made jewelry.

   

   Jewel:  Gallup, mostly.

   

   Lavoy:  Mostly Gallup.

   

   Jewel:  All the surrounding area over there, over to

Gallup, was a big jewelry town.

   

   Lavoy:  But now, in recent years, shortly before we

left Red Mesa and back then, jewelry was really in

vogue, and everybody was startin' to make it a little

bit.  So everybody was gettin' into it, and it

devaluated the jewelry somewhat--it really did cheapen

it when everybody was puttin' out bracelets and rings

and things.

   

   Cole:  Was there a change in the quality?

   

   Lavoy:  There most definitely was.  One reason our

pawn business was so good is that there was so much

good jewelry out there, and it was really valued by the

people.  You know, if they pledged something with you,

they weren't going to let it go dead, or they were

going to do something to redeem it.  And there at the

end, it got to be so much there, that people were

almost pawning it with you to sell it, you know, just

to get rid of it, and they were never interested in

pickin' it back up.  So it did devaluate it and take

some of the market out of it, I think.

   

   Cole:  How were the bigger trader companies

perceived by smaller traders?

   

   Lavoy:  Well, I don't know if there were any real

big ones.  Maybe in some of the places like Shiprock or

Gallup there might have been some bigger, higher-volume

stores.  But most of us, I think, were pretty small-

scale operations.  The Babbitts, I think, out of

Flagstaff, they owned a lot of different stores, but I

think individually all their stores were small, remote

little posts.

   

   Cole:  Do you see much difference between the

trading posts on the Reservation, versus the ones in

the border towns?

   

   Lavoy:  Oh, yeah!  You know, on the Reservation,

like I said, we called our place a "meat and potatoes"

store.  We sold the basics.  When they'd get off the

Reservation....  Well, there were some of those kind

off the Reservation, too.  But a lot of the places that

were called "trading posts" per se, they become little

curio shops and tourist places and novelties, as

opposed to regular meat and potatoes stores like ours.

   

   Cole:  And when did you finally sell out at Red

Mesa?

   

   Lavoy:  Sold out in 1984.  And by that time my

family was pretty big, and the wife was livin' in town,

and the kids were growin' up, and we just felt like it

was time for our family and things to make the move.

   And tradin' wasn't the same as it used to be.

Things were changin' drastically out there.  People

weren't as loyal to you, and as reliable, and things

were just changin' so fast that it wasn't like the good

ol' days used to be.  And we weren't able to make the

changes--I don't know.  With the highways and cars and

more of a cash economy, and the superstores in town--

maybe our need was just fadin' away a little bit.

   

   Cole:  By the time you sold out, had you seen

changes in the livestock industry also?

   

   Lavoy:  Oh, yes.  We used to buy a lot of livestock

out there.  In the recent years, we'd hardly buy any.

We used to run lambs out of there by the semi[truck]-

load.  I think the year I left, we couldn't even buy

enough lambs to fill one semi[truck]-load.  And one

reason was is that people just weren't tendin' sheep

anymore.  You know, the kids were goin' to school and

not herdin' sheep, and the parents were gettin' older

and not wantin' to, or they were wantin' to qualify for

a welfare check, so they had to get rid of resources so

they'd qualify.  And there's just not the livestock

there anymore.  A lot of people go into cattle, and

it's harder to credit cattle than it was sheep and

wool.

   

   Cole:  Why is that?

   

   Lavoy:  Well, I think cattle is somethin' they could

sell any time of the year, and every time they needed a

few dollars, they'd go sell a cow--or had to make a

pickup payment, they'd go sell a cow.  So a cow got to

be something you couldn't rely on for credit, whereas

wool and lambs, that's pretty much a seasonal thing,

and when it was time to sell them, you sold a whole

bunch at one time, and they could satisfy their debts

and things.

   

   Cole:  Do you think the potential is still there for

rejuvenation of the sheep business on the Reservation?

   

   Lavoy:  Well, it looks to me like that there's been

so much overgrazing for so many years, that there's

just not the carrying capacity out there that there

must have been at one time.  So I think there's just

not the range for it, forage for it.

   

   Cole:  Why did you stay in the business?

   

   Jewel:  Didn't know anything else, did you?

   

   Lavoy:  Well, we enjoyed it and had a vested

interest in it.  Sometimes you can't walk off and leave

things.  But we didn't want to, either.  You know, it

was fun, we enjoyed it, it was makin' us a livin', and

it was ours, and we enjoyed what we were doin'.

   

   Cole:  What do you do now?

   

   Lavoy:  I have a little pet supply store here in

Farmington--probably one of the bigger places in town,

or the biggest place.  We sell a lot of dog food and

cat food, all the supplies that go with that industry.

There's a lot of money spent on pets in our society

anymore, and we're quite enjoying it, and we have lots

of Indian customers.  A lot of Indian customers come

there.  A lot of my old customers from out to the store

come by and say hello--I get hugs every week.

   

   Cole:  (facetiously) Do you run any credit or pawn

at your store?

   

   Lavoy:  No credit!  (laughter)  You know, as I look

back, I don't see how we made any money out there on

the Reservation.  We did so many things, and did so

many things that probably weren't sound business-wise.

Now we're in a store, and it's a cash business, if we

haven't sold it, it's on the shelf.  If we have sold

it, the money's in the drawer, and it's just a lot

simpler.  The trading post business was a complicated

business, with all the things that we did.

   

   Cole:  What would you say you were most proud of as

a trader?

   

   Lavoy:  I think probably havin' my family out there,

and raisin' a good strong, solid, close family; and for

the friendships I developed out there.  We still have,

as I mentioned, families that come see us and say hello

to us.  And we were active out there in our church, and

we've conducted funerals for people, and gave people

blessings, and had people call on us for those kind of

things.  Those are just satisfying things to be honored

with.

   

   Cole:  Did your church have a ward house out there

when you first moved there?

   

   Lavoy:  We had a branch at Teec Nos Pos, yes.  And

shortly before we left, they'd built a nice little

chapel there, so they had a nice little facility.  When

I was involved out there, we met Sundays in the chapter

house.

   

   Cole:  How about you, Jewel, when you were at Red

Rock, was there church out there? or did you have to

come to town?

   

   Jewel:  We always come to town, yeah.  They had

missionaries who were around out there among 'em.  But

I wasn't a good preacher like Lavoy is.  (laughter)

   

   Cole:  Would you come in regularly, or just on

occasion, for a church service every week?

   

   Jewel:  Oh, I tried to, yeah.  I tried to come in,

we generally kept a hired man, you know, out to the

store.  Of course there was weeks that we'd have to let

him off a weekend, and I'd stay.  Otherwise, I was in

town weekends.

   

   Cole:  Lavoy, in your opinion, what should Anglos

understand about the Navajo?

   

   Lavoy:  I think they should understand that they're

good people.  You know, they're a fun people, they're a

loyal people.  They're the salt of the earth.  It seems

like so many people in town, all they see are the

problems that come to town.  But when you're out there

where they live, and with the families, and the larger

families, they're just a good, honest, hard-workin'

people that want to be happy, just like the rest of us.

   

   Jewel: They’re just like the rest of us.  Like I

always said, the bad ones come to town, the good ones

stay out there--and that's true.  They didn't need to

come down, get drunk, you know--others do.

   

   Cole:  Did you see a lot of problem with alcohol

back when you first started up the trading post?

   

   Jewel:  Oh, yeah.  They used to make their own--

seemed like a lot of 'em.

   

   Cole:  What would they make it out of?

   

   Jewel:  Sugar, a lot of it.

   

   Leona: (whispers) Sugar?

   

   Jewel:  I'm not an alcohol maker, I don't know.

(Cole:  I wouldn't know, either.)  But I know they did.

Let it ferment.  I guess it had a kick to it.

   

   [END SIDE A, BEGIN SIDE B]

   Cole:  This is Brad Cole from Northern Arizona

University.  It's March 11, 1998.  We're at the home of

Jewel and Leona McGee, in Farmington, New Mexico.  Also

present in the room are Lavoy McGee and Lew Steiger.

This is an interview sponsored by the United Indian

Traders Association.

     I was just asking Lavoy, what did the trader

contribute to the Navajo people or native community?

   

   Lavoy:  Well, of course, we provided goods and

services that weren't out there.  You know, they had no

place to make any purchases at all until the traders

went out there and provided these stores.  So they made

goods and services available.  And I emphasize

services, too, because we were really the Indians' link

with the rest of the country.  You know, they were

mostly illiterate, and they couldn't read or write and

understand a lot of things, and they'd come to us with

about all their needs:  letter writin', and form

fillin' out, and whatever.  So we provided kind of a

link [for] them to our society.

   

   Cole:  Did you have a post office at Red Mesa,

Jewel?

   

   Lavoy:  We had a post office, everybody got their

mail at our place, and we had the little cubby holes

that we put all their mail in, and they'd come in and

ask for it, and we'd give 'em their mail.

   

   Cole:  We were speaking with Leona a minute ago

about how the Navajo actually lived--maybe the more

traditional ones, or in older times.  What did they do

for water and things like that?

   

   Lavoy:  Most of 'em hauled water.  Very few of 'em

had water right at their sites.  Of course in recent

years they'd haul water in their pickup--still do.  And

before they'd haul it in their wagons or something like

that.  So they just had to haul the water they had.

   

   Cole:  What do you remember about that, Leona?

   

   Leona:  Well, I remember 'em coming there to Red

Rock.  We had a, oh, what would you call it?, down

there, Jewel?  (Jewel:  Spring.)  (Lavoy:  Well?)  A

well (Jewel:  Spring!) toward the wash there.  They'd

come in their wagons.

   

   Jewel:  Had a cement trough and the spring kept it

full all the time.

   

   Leona:  And they'd have to come and fill their big

barrels with water, and then go back home with their

team and wagon...

   

   What else was it I wanted to tell you?  The old

squaws, they would wear skirts on top of skirts.  I

often wondered why did they do that?  ...(laughs)  They

would never take 'em off.

   Then, too, I enjoyed going out to the squaw dances

once in a while, and Jewel wouldn't hardly get out of

the pickup, because you know the women would come and

grab him and make him go dance with 'em, and then they

wouldn't turn loose of him until he paid 'em.  He'd

have to give 'em money to get out of it.  (chuckles)

Have you ever seen one?

   

   Cole:  No.

   

   Leona:  To be out there in the dirt.  Let's see, did

they have little tom-toms?  They did, didn't they?,

they pounded on.

   

   Jewel:  Drums.

   

   Leona:  Drums.  And they would dance, partners

holding each other's hands, here, side-by-side.  And

they would go down a ways, and then they'd come back,

down a ways and come back.  And they'd do that and do

that and do that.  But it was interesting to watch

them....

   But it was nice.  And then one time we went to a

fire dance, and that was really worth seeing.  I wish

we could have gotten closer, but they must have been

piling wood there for a long time, because it was a

huge fire.  Then they would dance in their costumes,

you know, and chant and everything.  And I don't really

know what those were for.  Were they for the sick?

   

   Jewel:  They were always for the sick.

   

   Leona:  Always for the sick, I guess.  But it was

very extravagant, but it was beautiful.  I thought,

"Well, how wonderful that they could believe in that so

strongly."  And it must have helped.  I guess the Lord

was lookin' after 'em.

   

   Jewel:  Medicine man, he had two little kids.  Boy,

could they dance!  They'd all come out in costume.

What was they, four or five years old?

   

   Leona:  Oh there were some little ones, and then

there was big ones, too.

   

   Jewel:  Those two, though, that were so good.

   

   Leona:  I don't know how old they were--probably

five or six, somewhere along in there.  But dance?  Oh!

And it's wonderful how they learn to do those things,

and what a tradition it is with the Indians.  But your

heart kind of goes out to them (Jewel: _____’s boys--

You remember ‘em, don’t you?) At that time, when we

were first out there, because they sure didn't have

much to work with--and how they would get along.  And I

could never bear to eat any of their mutton stew.

(laughs)  They cooked it in tubs--that was okay--but I

just couldn't.  I never liked mutton from that day on.

I just couldn't stomach it.  Of course that's their

living, they want it all the time.  They still do.

They'll choose it over beef or chicken or anything

else.  But it was hard to get used to.  But they were

good people, and you couldn't help but love them and

appreciate them.

   

     Jewel, did you tell everything?  Probably.

   

   Cole:  Lavoy, did you or Jewel ever take a sweat

bath?

   

   Lavoy:  Never did.  Never did.

   

   Cole:  What do you think you learned from the

Navajo?

   

   Lavoy:  I don't think I learned anything from 'em, I

just learned to respect 'em and enjoy 'em for the human

beings that they are, and the good people that they

are.

   

   Cole:  Do you think they learned anything from you?

   

   Lavoy:  I hope that they learned to be honest and

upright and forthright, and gained a good opinion of

white men from me.

   

   Leona:  Be a man of your word.

   

   Cole:  When you look back now, what are some of your

favorite memories, being a trader?

   

   Lavoy:  I just think the lifestyle was fun.  You

know, it was kinda laid back and unhurried, and back in

the early days, when people would come to the store, it

was an all-day occasion.  They weren't in a hurry, and

you weren't in a hurry.  And it seemed like the more

years went by, things started hurryin' up, and they got

in a hurry too.  We just enjoyed doin' it, and enjoyed

the friendships.  That's about it.

   

   Jewel:  We used to be out there at the store, and

the ol’ bull pen would be full, and all at once we'd

get a horseshoe game started out in the front yard.

Everybody was out there sittin' in the shade, watchin'

that game.  (chuckles)

   

   Cole:  Did the Navajo gamble on games at all like

that?

   

   Jewel:  They did, yeah, sure.  Shoe game is about

all I ever heard of that--I guess put somethin' in a

shoe and then guess who got it or something.

   

   Leona:  Oh, when they won?

   

   Jewel:  Yeah, when they won, they found it.

   

   Cole:  Did you ever have any incidents where

somebody tried to rob you or anything like that?

   

   Leona:  Oh, Jewel, you didn't tell the story of

Hosteen Nez [phonetic spelling].

   

   Jewel:  Well, you tell it, I can't hardly talk.

   

   Leona:  Well, Hosteen Nez was our....  Oh, I'll tell

you a little incident.  Just before we were married, a

short time, and Jewel was working out to the store.

Well, you know, we had Indian trader friends living

around.  There was Beclahbeto and Teec Nos Pos and

several of 'em.  We were sort of young couples, and we

decided we'd go up on the Lukachukai for a picnic and

get-together.  So we decided this Sunday we'd do that.

So Jewel was at the store, but he left the store the

night before, I guess, and left this Navajo, Hosteen

Nez, to watch the store, to guard it.  And in the

meantime, before he come to the store there, he'd had a

falling-out with his nephew who had left his wife and

children, was taking up with another woman, and old

Hosteen Nez was scolding him and getting after him

about it, and he said, "You've got to stop that and go

back home."  And anyway, they had some words.  So that

night, when he was watching the store, this nephew--and

he always slept up on top of the store--it was a flat

roof, you know--he'd just get up there, and he could

see all around.  Even though it was night, he could

kinda keep watch better that way.  Well, so when he was

asleep, this nephew climbed up there and shot him.  And

he had two little grandkids there, sleeping by him, and

of course when they woke up the next morning, why, here

their grandpa was dead.  And I don't remember how they

first discovered it, but Geralynn [phonetic spelling]

and we others, all the traders....  Anyway, we started

out there to meet everyone at the store.  So on the

way, we met a fellow that worked for the government at

the Cove Trading Post just west of us, and he had found

out that [Hosteen Nez] had been killed.  So he told us.

So anyway, we had to go on out there, and our friends,

we told 'em just to go on up on the mountain.  As soon

as the government would come out and release the body,

then get things settled, why, we'd join them.  But when

this fellow did this, he robbed the store, took jewelry

and what money was in the cash register, got guns and

bullets and what-have-you, and went.  So they got the

word out and did catch him at....  Where was it, Jewel?

   

   Jewel:  I don't know.  Somewhere down between....

   

   Leona:  Holbrook!  Holbrook is where they caught up

with him.  And he admitted what he did, but it was kind

of a sad situation.  But that was the only time we had

with robbery.  But it was kind of sad.  He was such a

good man, Hosteen Nez.  But these things happen.  He

[the nephew] was in prison for life.

   

   Jewel:  I don't think he ever has got out yet.

   

   Leona:  No.

   

   Cole:  Well, Lavoy, thinking back on your life as a

trader, is there anything you'd change, if you could do

it over again?

   

   Lavoy:  I don't think so.  You know, I didn't bring

much off the Reservation with me in the way of

artifacts and jewelry and rugs.  I maybe should have

had a little better collection with me when I left.  I

didn't bring those with me, and I regret that some.

Otherwise, I don't have any regrets.

   

   Jewel:  That's our only regrets, that we didn't save

more when we had chances to.  Wasn't interested in 'em,

I guess.

   

   Leona:  Oh, well, we were interested, but we just

took enough just to use, and not go into a lot of

artifacts and stuff.

   

   Lavoy:  You know, it was a good life.  When my kids

get together now, they still talk about those "good ol'

days out at the tradin' post."  They did things and had

experiences that nobody will ever have again.  People

would bring their mohair and their wool in, and we'd

store it in the barn and we'd have our big racks that

suspended the big bags that we'd bag it in, and get in

there and stomp that, and the kids were out there in

the middle of it.  And when we'd have a rain, it used

to come in and fill the corrals with rain water.  Then

we had some old wooden feeding troughs out there.

Those little troughs would float.  The kids would get

out there in those old troughs and paddle 'em around

like rowboats, up and down the roads in their bare

feet, and the old slimy, red mud.  They just did some

things that nobody will do before.  Out at Red Mesa, we

did have some horses out there.  We had some nice

little horses, and the kids would ride and have lots of

fun, and gotta break a few of 'em, so they had some

unique experiences out there.  And they still have

their little Indian friends that will still call on 'em

and check on 'em and see how they're doin'.  My one

little daughter is named Shelly--they call her "Shelly

Yellow Hair."  There were some people by that name out

there, so they had some neat, fun experiences.  They

went to school out there for a few years, as I

mentioned, and it was unique, bein' some white kids in

an Indian school.  They had a few struggles, but made a

lot of friends, too.  Good years.

   

   Leona:  Jewel didn't tell you about one thing he

helped the Indians with.  Your shearing, Jewel.  You

told 'em about getting the bucks and having better

wool, but you didn't tell 'em about that.  Can you do

that?

   

   Jewel:  Oh, we just bought a shearing machine and

paid a white man to go out and teach some of the Indian

boys how to shear with a machine, you know, like they

do.

   

   Leona:  Yeah, but why do you want 'em to shear it?

   

   Jewel:  To keep it clean.

   

   Leona:  Well, but tell 'em the incidents that

happened that didn't keep it clean.  (chuckles)

   

   Jewel:  Well, when they sheared, why, they wanted to

waller it around in the sand all they could, then put

it in the sack.  (chuckles)  When they got doin' the

machine, why, we taught 'em that wool was worth more if

they kept it clean.  So they'd stay on the tarp.

   

   Steiger:  Why would they put it in the sand?

   

   Leona and Jewel:  Weighs [more].  (Leona chuckles)

   

   Jewel:  You could take them old sacks and shake that

wool, and the sand would come out of it.

   

   Leona: Terrible.

   

   Cole:  Were there any other things, kind of games

like that, that would happen in trading?  Or with

selling livestock or anything?

   

   Leona:  Did they ever put rocks in the piñon nuts?

   

   Jewel:  Yeah, they did, once.  I found several

times.  I put the man's name on it and hung it up in

the store.  Boy, he didn't like that!  (laughter)  He

said, "I didn't do it!  The kids must have done it!"

(laughter)

   

   Leona:  We used to buy piñon nuts.  How many did you

buy one year, Jewel?

   

   Jewel:  I don't know.

   

   Leona:  Oh, all up and down the counter there, we

had great big gunny sacks full of piñon nuts.

   

   Jewel:  That was just every day.  Then we'd sew

sacks up all night, prit near.

   

   Cole:  Well, Jewel, would you eat mutton stew?  Or

did you eat it?

   

   Jewel:  If I made it, yeah, I would.  (laughter)

Not that they made, I didn't care much about it.

   

   Leona:  Well, the reason it took me--I don't know if

they put these insides in their stew after they take

the guts and they strip 'em.  That just nearly floored

me, when I saw 'em doing this.  "Surely, what are they

going to do with those?!"  (laughter)  "Did they put it

in the stew?!"  Anyway, they butchered a sheep out

there, and here they'd go, strippin' these....

   

   Lavoy:  Guts.

   

   Jewel:  It was nothin' but the feed that was in him.

   

   Leona:  So I don't know how they ate it, but they

ate it.  Did that go in mutton stew?  (laughs)  Oh,

dear.

   

   Cole:  Well, Lavoy, is there anything you'd like to

add?

   

   Lavoy:  I think that about sums it up.

   

   Cole:  How about Leona or Jewel?

   

   Leona:  I don't know what Jewel's got.  I don't

think we can tell you any more.  You got any more on

that list I wrote down?

   They're good people, and they've had to learn things

the hard way.  How happy and good it's been for them to

have a cleaner way of living.  And they're doin' real

well by it.  (chuckles)

   

   Cole:  Well, thank you.

   

   Lavoy:  Thank you.

   

   Leona:  I should say.

   

   [END OF INTERVIEW]