JEWEL McGEE INTERVIEW

   

   [BEGIN SIDE A]

   

   This is Brad Cole from Northern Arizona University.

We're at the home of Jewel McGee in Farmington, New

Mexico.  It's February 11, [1998], at 10:40 in the

morning.  Also present in the room are Karen Underhill

of Northern Arizona University, Lew Steiger, and

Jewel's wife, Leona McGee.  [About 34 min. into the

interview the narrator’s son, Lavoy McGee, joins the

conversation.]

   

   Cole:  Jewel, I'd like to start by asking you when

and where you were born.

   

   McGee:  At Kirtland, New Mexico, 1914.

   

   Leona McGee:  March 10, 1914.

   

   McGee:  Oh, yeah, tenth of March, 1914.

   

   Cole:  And who were your parents?

   

   McGee:  Carl McGee and Pearl McGee.

   

   Cole:  And had they been traders?

   

   McGee:  No.

   

   Cole:  Next I'd like [for you to] kinda, maybe if

you could, give us a brief chronology of when you began

working in a trading post, and then what trading posts

you worked for.

   

   McGee:  Well, I worked at--when I first got out of

school, I went out to a little ol' place out north.

They called it Tsaile.  I herded sheep and worked in

the store.  Then I went from there to Red Mesa--Arizona

down here--and I worked there for, oh, I don't know,

two years, probably, and then I went over to Red Rock,

Arizona.  You know where that is, there (Cole:  Uh-

huh.), Lukachukai.  That's where I ended up owning.  I

went in with my uncle.  I started to work for him, and

then I bought him out and owned it for a long time.

   

   Cole:  Do you remember about what time period you

bought that first?

   

   McGee:  About 1933, along in there, is when I first

went there.

   

   Cole:  What were the living, economic, and social

conditions like for you at the trading post at that

time?

   

   McGee:  Oh, they were--we raised our family out

there, and that was the most enjoyable parts of our

lives, bein' out there at that time.  We really enjoyed

it, bein' out there with the Indians, and different

things.

   

   Cole:  What do you remember about their lifestyle or

social conditions at that time period?--your customers.

   

   McGee:  Well, they lived a very common life.  They

just had what we'd call the necessities.  Their homes

weren't modern, [they] lived in hogans, and all that

stuff.  Of course their transportation was teams and

wagons.  I think when I first went out there, there was

one Indian that had an old pickup, and that was the car

situation.

   

   Cole:  Do you speak Navajo?

   

   McGee:  Oh, yes.

   

   Cole:  How long did it take you to learn?

   

   McGee:  Never did get it all learned!  (laughter)  I

don't think anybody ever does.  Anybody that really

learns to talk fluent Navajo has gotta be raised there.

My kids sometimes shoulda done it.  You’d go in the

store, and sure I learned Indian, and I learned the

store talk, but when you get out any other places, why,

I get lost pretty quick.

   

   Cole:  When you first started at the trading post,

were there many Navajos that spoke English at all?

   

   McGee:  No, very few.

   

   Cole:  So how did you communicate while you were

learning the store language?

   

   McGee: (points with finger)  By pointing.

(chuckles)  Pretty soon, [if he came in?], he'd say the

name of the can of tomatoes, and you had to learn to

remember that.  And you just gradually pick it up.

   

   Cole:  Do you have a Navajo nickname?

   

   McGee:  Yeah, "Hairy Boy."

   

   Cole:  And how did you come about getting that?

   

   McGee:  That's what they named me--seein' all this

hair on my chest and my arms, I'm a hairy boy.

   

   Cole:  How is that said in Navajo?

   

   McGee:  ‘Ashkii dit»’o.

   

   Cole:  And then at what point did you feel like you

became accepted by the Navajo?

   

   McGee:  Oh, I don't know, I guess after a year or

two when the Indians got to comin' in more and tradin'

with you, why, you was accepted more.  They'd come in

and visit and stuff like that.  You'd just have to feel

like you're kinda like one of 'em.

   

   Cole:  How would you describe the Navajo-Anglo trade

relationship to someone unfamiliar with it?

   

   McGee:  I don't quite get what you mean there.

   

   Cole:  If you were to explain how trade worked in

your post in the 1930's, to, say, someone like me that

had no idea....

   

   McGee:  Well, we used to credit the stockmen and

everybody like that.  We'd give them credit accounts,

and then we'd buy their lambs and their wool.  Of

course we always had their rugs.  It was an item with

'em that we marketed and sold for 'em--bought 'em and

sold 'em.

   

   Cole:  You mentioned that your stores didn't do a

lot of business in arts and crafts, but you did mention

[stock].  Tell us a little bit about the stock

business.

   

   McGee:  Well, they had lots of--it was a good stock

country out there, you know, between those creeks and

mountains and the red wood.  There was lots of stock in

there.  I used to buy about 4,000 lambs and 400 bags of

wool every year.  Talking about big bags, not little

ones.

   

   Cole:  How did you get your stock to market from the

Reservation?

   

   McGee:  We herded 'em in, sold 'em, and shipped 'em

on the railroad.

   

   Cole:  How long did it take to do the herding?  Did

you go along with them on that?

   

   McGee:  Yeah, about eight days to come from the

store to the railroad.

   

   Cole:  And where was the railroad at?

   

   McGee:  Here at Farmington.

   

   Cole:  Could you describe the pawn and barter

system, how that worked?

   

   McGee:  Well, generally, we'd take in pawn, you

know.  Of course we'd value it, like say what it was

worth, and then we'd take it in for part of it.  We

didn't buy it to sell--we wanted him to redeem it.  We

had a six-month limit, but we never hardly sold any of

the good stuff, 'cause we didn't want to.  We'd hold it

'til he'd come and take it out.  And it was mostly

barter.  I mean, he'd come in and pawn it for

groceries.  Or if he wanted cash, why, we'd charge him

a percentage on it.

   

   Cole:  Was there much of a business in cash at that

time?

   

   McGee:  You mean, Navajos have cash?

   

   Cole:  Right.

   

   McGee:  Not at first, no.  We used to laugh about

it--our pelt sales was about the only cash we got all

during [the year]--outside of wool and lamb season.

   

   Cole:  I was sort of curious that you would have

been on the Reservation beginning during the Great

Depression (McGee:  Yeah.), and maybe did you feel any

effect from that?  Or did the Navajos?

   

   McGee:  Oh, my goodness.  One time we took a bunch

of lambs to Denver--couldn't sell 'em here--so we

shipped 'em to Denver, and I think we got three dollars

a dozen for 'em, above the freight.  (laughter)  So you

can see how good we did on that!  I think we’d paid a

nickel a pound for 'em.

   

   

   Cole:  And then sort of along the same line, do you

remember the John Collier stock reduction program?

   

   McGee: Yes, I sure do.  That was terrible.  Drive

big herds of goats in there and just kill 'em.  Of

course, they weren't wasted, the Indians took 'em--for

the meat.  But it had to cut 'em, 'cause the range

wouldn't carry 'em all.

   

   Cole:  Maybe if you could explain to us, ownership

of trading posts, or the whole leasing system, how that

worked.

   

   McGee:  Well, at the end, we ended up with a twenty-

five year lease.  Of course, we didn't own the

buildings, everything we put there was permanent and

belonged to the tribe.  But we did have the right, like

if you wanted to come in, why, you could buy it from

us, but you were in the same way--in the end, they

ended up belonging to the tribe.

   

   Cole:  Now, you mentioned a twenty-five-year lease.

Did that start in the 1930's?

   

   McGee:  No, that was way later.  We fought 'em for

years to get that.  At first it was just....  Well, we

didn't have to have a lease with the tribe--we just had

it with the government.  And that's when they come in

with the tribe, and they kinda took over.  We had to

have both--with the tribe and the government.

   

   Cole:  So from the 1930's into probably the 1950's

was a lease just with the federal government?

   

   McGee:  Yeah.

   

   Cole:  And then probably, was it about 1955 that the

long-term leases came?

   

   McGee:  Yeah, it was quite a bit later, yeah.  I

think those twenty-five-year leases have been up, so it

would have been before.

   

   Cole:  After that twenty-five-year lease, did you

continue to lease from the tribe?

   

   McGee:  Yes.

   

   Cole:  Did you work with the Navajo on improving

their rugs or anything like that?

   

   McGee:  Oh, yes.  Sure we tried to get 'em to

improve their rugs--especially their stock.  I used to

buy good bucks and rams, give 'em, take 'em out and put

'em out with 'em every year.  When they first started,

why, they were all old long, hairy--you know what a

goat is, don't you?  Their wool was more like a goat's.

They liked it for that, 'cause it was good for weaving.

Of course, we didn't like it much to market sell--it

wasn't very good, 'cause it was too hairy.

   

   Cole:  Did you do the same thing with cattle or

horses also?

   

   McGee:  Yes.  Horses, no.  They had lots of them all

the time.  But cattle, why, we helped them.

   

   Cole:  Did you do much business with horse trading

at all?

   

   McGee:  No.

   

   Cole:  Do you have any artisans from your area that

stand out in your mind, Navajo artisans?

   

   McGee:  No, I don't think so.

   

   Cole:  I'm sort of curious, what characteristics do

traders have in common, and maybe what makes a good

trader?

   

   McGee:  Well, I didn't know they had much in common,

but I think the good trader was the one that worked

with the Indians on the things that he wanted him to

do, and helped him.  Some of 'em just went there, and

all they was there was for the dollar they get out of

him.  Of course, you know, in anything, you have people

like that.

   

   Cole:  When you think back about your days in the

trading post, what were some of the more popular items

that you carried?

   

   McGee:  Well, I was just a general merchandise

store.  Of course, your old coffee and flour and stuff,

that's your most popular item.  Levi Strauss overalls.

(laughter)

   

   Cole:  What about, say, for the women?  Was there

anything that they prized more than [anything else]?

   

   McGee:  What do you mean?  Jewelry or clothes?

   

   Cole:  Jewelry or clothing or things that you sold.

   

   McGee:  Well, bracelets and squash blossoms--and

then yard goods, of course, that they made their skirts

out of.  Velveteen was their blouse.  That's what they

made their blouses out of.

   

   Cole:  I'm sort of curious, what kinds of changes

did you see then when you started?  You started in the

1930's.  How did trading evolve?  Did it stay behind

the counter?  Or did it grow to bigger stores?

   

   McGee:  Oh, it changed.  Like the store I was at,

why, I remodeled it and made it self-service, enlarged

it, and had departments of hardware and dry goods and

groceries.

   

   Cole:  Did you then have to hire quite a few

employees to run those stores?

   

   McGee:  Well, we generally hired one man, a white

fellow, and then we had Indians that helped clerk.

   

   Cole:  Did you ever develop, or see a need to

develop any kind of a benefit program for employees?

   

   McGee:  No.  That was unheard of in those days.

   

   Cole:  How many trading posts did you end up owning

by the time, say, later into the 1960's or 1970's?

   

   McGee:  Oh, we had Red Rock.  That, of course, was

my main place.  And then I bought in, my brother and

me, we had Dennehotso and Mexican Water and Sweetwater.

   

   Cole:  And Red Mesa, too?

   

   McGee:  Yeah.

   

   Cole:  And then what was your brother's name?

   

   McGee:  Roscoe McGee.

   

   Cole:  So you were partners.  And does your trading

business continue to today?

   

   McGee:  No, they're all gone.

   

   Cole:  When did you finally sell out or move off the

Reservation?

   

   McGee:  (to wife) Do you remember?

   

   Leona McGee:  (whispers)  1966 or '67.

   

   McGee: 1967 or '68, I think.

   

   Cole:  Is that when you moved into Farmington?

   

   McGee:  No.  No, we'd lived here a long time.  I

went back and forth for years.

   

   Cole:  Why did you do that?

   

   McGee:  Kids was in school in here.

   

   Cole:  So did your family--you said initially they

lived on the trading post, but then when they became

school age they moved?

   

   McGee: They had to move in here.  Of course, they

came back summers and-- they'd either come out

weekends, or I'd come in weekends.

   

   Cole:  Did your family work at the trading post when

they were out there, then?

   

   McGee:  The kids did.  My boy is the only one--

that’s he, he’s the one (gestures toward Lavoy who is

off-camera).  He's the only one that went into tradin'.

None of the rest of 'em did.

   

   Cole:  Another thing I was sort of curious about:

Were you providing a postal service at all?

   

   McGee:  We carried the mail, yes.  We didn't have a

post office, but we just, out of a box, you know, with

different letters on it.  They'd come in, we'd get the

mail for 'em.  They just sent their mail in care of Red

Rock Trading Post.

   

   Cole:  And then I know over the years there were

different things that happened with the Railroad

Retirement Board System checks, Social Security checks,

things like that.  What kinds of change did that [bring

to] the trader and the Navajo customer?

   

   McGee:  Well, it made lots of changes, 'cause after,

you know, we got to shippin' 'em out on the railroad,

why, if you get a hundred people workin' on the

railroad, and then in comes the retirement checks, why,

that's a hundred checks comin' in there at the store.

Made a big difference.

   

   Cole:  Would the Navajos work on the railroad all

year round?

   

   McGee:  Yeah.  Yeah, whenever they wanted Indians,

they'd call me at the store and say, "Can you get us

twenty-five, fifty Indians to come to work?"  And we'd

get 'em to go, and take 'em into Farmington here and

ship 'em.

   

   Cole:  They wouldn't just stay in Farmington, then?

   

   McGee:  Oh, no, they went all over--Denver, all over

the United States.

   

   Cole:  Did most of them then come back eventually,

to their home areas?

   

   McGee:  Oh, always, yeah.

   

   Cole:  And then did you see a change in their

lifestyle or anything, because of that employment?

   

   McGee:  Well, sure it helped 'em economically,

'cause they had money.  When they was out workin', they

sent money home.  When they come home, why then they

got retirement money, or whatever you call it.

Unemployment, I guess you'd call it, with the railroad.

   

   Cole:  I'd like to maybe switch gears a little bit

here and ask you about the United Indian Traders

Association.  When and why did you join?

   

   McGee:  I joined 'em for survival.  They were just

about to kick all the traders off.

   

   Cole:  And when was that?

   

   McGee:  Well, it was in the [late thirties], 1936,

[early] forties, along in there.

   

   Cole:  Do you remember how many members there were

at that time period?

   

   McGee:  I think there was about 104 traders.

   

   [Some interruption--People talking, and walking back

and forth in front of the camera.]

   

   Cole:  Were you a charter member of the United

Indian Traders?

   

   McGee:  No.  It was started just before.

   

   Cole:  Do you remember any of the charter members at

all?, who they were?

   

   McGee:  Well, my uncle that I was in partners with,

he was a charter member, Carlos Storer [phonetic

spelling], Al Lee, a bunch of those older fellows.

   

   Cole:  Did your uncle, do you remember, have a

jewelry mark?  I guess apparently they had some kind of

a stamp that United Indian Traders developed to

authenticate jewelry.  Do you remember....

   

   McGee:  No.  We didn't make jewelry out in our

country.

   

   Cole:  And then with your long-time affiliation with

the Traders Association, what were some of the bigger

issues that you remember that the Association had to

deal with?

   

   McGee:  Well, it was mostly just gettin' things

worked out with the tribe, about lettin' us stay on

there, and about the buildings and--all the different

things that would come up, you know, in leasing from

somebody.

   

   Cole: Do you remember the Federal Trade Commission

and the DNA [Dinébe’iiná Náhiilna’ Bee

Agha’diit’aahí]–the issue over leasing?  What do you

remember about that in the early 1970's?

   

   McGee:  I don't remember much about it.

   

   Cole:  That's fine.  What do you remember of the

Association, how it operated on an annual basis?  Was

it also a social association, or was it just totally

work oriented?

   

   McGee:  Oh, we generally had a get-together once a

year, a big meeting, and talk about problems, and then

a big dinner.  We'd have it at Gallup or Farmington, or

someplace, and everybody'd go.

   

   Cole:  Sort of getting toward the end here, how has

trading changed over time?

   

   McGee:  Well, it's changed altogether.  It really

isn't a grocery and hardware business anymore--it's all

artifacts.  The ones that are there just deal in rugs

and jewelry and stuff like that.  Changed altogether.

The grocery business and merchandise is probably all

over out there.

   

   Cole:  Has tourism had an impact on trading?  Did

you see many tourists when you first started, versus

later?

   

   McGee:  No, we didn't used to have tourists out in

our country.

   

   Cole:  What are you most proud about, being an

Indian trader?

   

   McGee:  Well, I guess I'm proud of being successful

financially, and I'm proud that I helped them in their

stock business.  I built some of the best sheepherders

on the Reservation.  Like one time I wanted to put out

some different kind of bucks for the Indians, and they

wouldn't let anybody else do it.  The government told

me to "just go ahead and do what you want to.  You made

this stock business out here anyway."  So they give me

full reign of the rams and bucks and stuff that I put

out.

   

   Cole:  Outside of the stock business, what did you

teach the Navajo, if anything?

   

   McGee:  Well, I couldn't teach him anything, much.

I just tried to teach him to be honest in his dealings

with things, pay his accounts and do like he should do.

   

   Cole:  What would you say you learned from the

Navajo?

   

   McGee:  Well, I don't know.  I guess I learned a

lot:  learned how to manage businesses and credit

relations.

   

   Cole:  [I'd like to ask you] maybe a couple of

questions about your family.  How did you meet your

spouse, and when and where did that happen?

   

   McGee:  Well, you know, we come to town weekends

some of the time, and I run into her.  (chuckles)

   

   Cole:  That was in Farmington?

   

   McGee:  Down at Kirtland.

   

   Cole:  And how many children do you have?

   

   McGee:  Seven.

   

   Cole:  And where were they all born?

   

   McGee:  Oh, of course I forgot--after [the first

one] got school age, they were all born in town.

   

   Cole:  And how did your children, when they were out

on the Reservation with you on weekends and in the

summer, how were their dealings with the Navajo?

   

   McGee:  Oh, they liked it out there.  They'd run

around--and helped herd sheep.  We used to have to,

after a time when we'd lose him [Lavoy], we'd have to

go find him--followed some sheep herd off, herdin' it.

(chuckles)  We had one old girl that'd come in there

with her sheep, and Lavoy would follow her off every

time.

   

   Cole:  Do you remember any humorous stories that

stand out in your mind, all your years as a trader?  Or

any unusual stories?

   

   McGee:  Oh, I can't think of any right now.

   

   Leona McGee:  (whispers) Medicine man.

   

   McGee:  Can you think of one?

   

   Leona McGee:  Medicine man, Mol-yon [phonetic

spelling].

   

   McGee:  We had an old medicine man out there, and

one day I'd lost a--we used to set our scales out in

the hay barn, you know, and we'd buy hay from the

Indians.  And I lost my little fifty-pound weight.  And

so, we hunted and we hunted, and we couldn't find it.

So they said, "Well, go get this old medicine man, Mol-

yon, to come find it for you."  So I did, and he went

out there in the hay barn.  The leaves was about a foot

deep.  He done his little chant, and pretty quick he

looked up, and he grinned.  He points two ways.  So

they went over there and dug, and they did, they found

a weight in each way.  Now, you can laugh at that, but

I saw it happen!  (chuckles)

   

   Cole:  If you could change anything about your life

or your work, what would you change?

   

   McGee:  Oh, I'm satisfied with it.  I really enjoyed

life on the Reservation.

   

   Cole:  What do you think the future of business with

the Native Americans will be?

   

   McGee:  I don't think it'll ever amount to much,

because they're gonna come to town anymore.  They got

good roads and good cars, and you can't compete with

Safeways and big dry goods stores, especially.

   

   Cole:  Is there anything else that you'd like to

add?

   

   McGee:  No.

   

   Cole:  Well, on behalf of the United Indian Traders

Association Project, we'd like to thank you for your

time.  Anything else you think of and [would] like to

add, just let us know at a later date, and we'd be

happy to add that in.

   

   McGee:  Okay.

   

   Leona McGee:  (inaudible)

   

   

   [Break in recording--Begins again, mid-conversation]

   

   McGee: The sick and the burials after I was there,

'cause we had--what was it?, an old hospital and a

preacher.  What was his name?

   

   Leona McGee: I don’t remember the one that was

there.

   

   McGee:  Well, anyway, he took care of that.  But up

until the time they come, why, my uncle used to have to

go up on the mountain and get 'em when they was sick

and take 'em to the hospital--do all that stuff.  And

he helped in burials.  I think I only helped in just a

few burials.

   

   Karen Underhill:  What other kinds of services did

you provide?  You were there to help with burials, and

you were there to supply goods, and you were improving

livestock, and what other kinds of things did you do as

a trader for the Navajo?

   

   Lavoy McGee:  We helped 'em conduct their business.

You know, like with the Social Security agent and the

welfare people.  We were intermediaries in lots of ways

and even interpreters, and write letters, read letters

to 'em.

   

   McGee:  We were the ones that registered 'em, you

know.  We worked for the government in that way.  When

Social Security started, why, we did that.  When they'd

come into the store, we'd fill their papers out and fix

it up for 'em.

   

   Lew Steiger:  I have just one little question, if

you don't mind.  How did you get started in the tradin'

business?  And what was your first trip into that

country like?  Did you do it horseback?  Or did you

drive a truck?  Or how'd that go?

   

   McGee:  I didn't drive one, but I rode in one.  They

had a few pickups.  The trader generally had a pickup,

and I went with him.

   

   Leona McGee:  You went in with Roscoe.  Went to

work, when you were out of high school, went with

Roscoe.  That was your first experience at Red Mesa.

   

   McGee:  No, it wasn’t.  I went out to Tsaile first.

I herded sheep and I helped run a little store out

there.  I mean, I didn't really herd sheep, but I

helped lamb 'em and do things like that.  And then I

worked in the store in the daytime.

   

   Cole:  Who was that for?

   

   McGee:  Chunky Tanner.

   

   Leona McGee: Tsaya.

   

   McGee: Tsaya Trading Post.

   

   Steiger:  And what year would that have been?

   

   McGee: 1933.

   

   Cole:  Growing up in Kirtland, did you have

experience with livestock?  Is that what your family

did?

   

   McGee:  Yes, Dad had cows and stuff.

   

   Cole:  What brought your dad to the Southwest?  Was

he born here, or did he move?

   

   McGee:  He moved here.  Come from back in Missouri,

I guess.  I guess a bunch of 'em come, and they just

moved out and settled in Kirtland down there.

   

   Cole:  Do you know what time period that was?

   

   Leona McGee:  How old was your dad?

   

   McGee:  Oh, that was....  How old would Melvin be?

   

   Leona McGee:  I don't know.

   

   Lavoy:  Must have been the early 1900's.

   

   McGee: Yeah--It’d be the early 1900's.

   

   [Break in recording--Begins again, mid-

conversation.]

   

   Leona McGee:  Between here and Tuba somewhere.

   

   McGee:  _______________.

   

   (several talking at once)

   

   Lavoy McGee:  Come from Oklahoma.

   

   Leona McGee:  How did they travel?

   

   McGee:  Team and horses.

   

   Leona McGee: That's all I'm asking.

   

   McGee:  Wagons.

   

   Leona McGee:  Did he come as a child, or was he

older?  A child, wasn't he?

   

   McGee:  Yeah.

   

   [END OF INTERVIEW]