MARILENE BLAIR INTERVIEW

   

   [BEGIN SIDE A]

   

   This is Karen Underhill with Northern Arizona

University.  We're here with Marilene Blair, and it is

Thursday, February 12, 1998, about 12:35 p.m.  Lew

Steiger is running the equipment, and Brad Cole is here

from NAU, and Elijah Blair.

   

   Underhill:  Well, Marilene, we'll start at the

beginning.  Can you tell us where and when you were

born?

   

   Blair:  I was born in Provo, Utah, twenty-sixth of

September 1919.

   

   Underhill:  And where was your family living at the

time?

   

   Blair:  The Toadlena Trading Post.

   

   Underhill:  And who were your parents?

   

   Blair:  George and Lucy Bloomfield.  George

Bloomfield, and Lucy Guymon Bloomfield.

   

   Underhill:  And how did they come to have a trading

post?

   

   Blair:  Daddy worked at the government school at

Shiprock, under Mr. Shelton, who was superintendent at

that time.  And he sent him to Toadlena to help build

the Indian school there.  He told Mr. Shelton at the

time--at least this is the story that's told me--that

if he ever gave Dad a raise, that he would quit. And

Mr. Shelton came out and raised his salary to seventy-

five dollars.  I think it was a month, or something

like that.  So Daddy quit, and he bought the store from

Merritt Smith.  That's the way we got to Toadlena.

   

   Underhill:  How many brothers and sisters do you

have?

   

   Blair:  (chuckles)  Seven.

   

   Underhill:  And where do you fall in that?

   

   Blair:  Second to the last.

   

   Underhill:  What was the trading post like when you

were small?  What are your early memories?

   Blair:    My early memories were nothing but good,

great.  I wish that kids nowadays could have a chance

to be raised in a place like we were.  It was

wonderful.

   

   Underhill:  And what made it so wonderful?

   

   Blair:  Freedom, I guess!  We just....  Well, what

do I say?  During the summertime we just roamed the

hills and the mountains and enjoyed.  There was Monte,

Ruthie, Paula, and I, were kinda the last four of the

kids.  We just roamed those mountains all the time, and

the hills--Two Gray Hills.  We lived in the canyon and

the mountains and it was great.

   

   Underhill:  What did the trading post look like then

as you were growing up?

   

   Blair:  Just like....  I don't know how to tell you

how it looked.  Dad had everything in it:  coffee,

lard, sugar, just about everything that the Indians

would buy at that time; cloth and shoes.

   

   Underhill:  Where was your home at the trading post?

   

   Blair:  Right in the trading post.  The house was

connected to the trading post.

   

   Underhill:  And how many rooms did you have?

   

   Blair:    Really, just three.  Wait, no, that's not

right--four.  We had the living room, the dining room,

and the kitchen, and a bedroom.  That was all.

   

   Underhill:  And all the kids slept together?

   

   Blair:  Well, we slept on the counter in the store a

lot.  But that's....  Wait a minute, I'm fogged up.

There were two bedrooms.  That's right.  Mother and Dad

had the first one, then we had the one beside it.  And

it had a door that went into the warehouse.  We did a

lot of sneakin' around at night.

   

   Underhill:  And what were you sneakin' for?

   

   Blair:  Candy.  (laughter)  Crackers and cookies,

whatever we could get our hands on.

   

   Underhill:  What kind of chores did you have to do

as a child?

   

   Blair:  We gathered the eggs, we took the milk to

the spring house, we went and got it when we got ready.

We didn't have any electricity.  There was a spring

about, oh, I don't know how far it was from the house,

but that's where we got our water, too.  We carried the

water from there at the spring, and kept the milk in

there to keep it cool.  I chopped a lot of wood.    And

we fed the livestock.  We had rabbits, and we took care

of them 'til we had so many rabbits we couldn't take

care of them anymore.  Dad said, "Turn them loose!"  So

we did.  We had cows.  That's one thing I never learned

to do, I never learned how to milk a cow.    The rest

of the kids all learned how, but I just didn't.

Gathered eggs.

   

   Underhill:  Did you have a garden?

   

   Blair:  Yes, we did.  Dad had a garden down below

the store, and we helped take care of it, watered it,

and pulled the weeds.

   

   Underhill:  What kind of things did you grow out

there?

   

   Blair:  You name it!    We had beans and peas and

carrots and potatoes and tomatoes.  You name it, any

kind of vegetable that was raise-able, we raised at

Dad's farm right down below the store.

   

   Underhill:  Would you sell any of it or trade any of

it in the store?

   

   Blair:  I think we gave quite a bit of it away, but

I don't remember ever selling any of it.  Probably gave

a lot of it away.

   

   Underhill:  Where did you go to school?

   

   Blair:  Well, I think Grace already told you the

story about how the school was.  Dad and the minister

there at Toadlena, Mr. Kobes, or maybe it was

Mr. Brink--I'm not sure which one it was--went to

Aztec--I believe it was Aztec--and they got permission

to have a school in the minister's little chapel there.

Then Dad recruited a bunch of Navajo kids to go to

school so we'd have enough for a school in those eight

classes, from first through eighth grade.  And that's

where we went to school with the Navajos and the

minister's children, Mr. Kobes’ children, when I was

growing up.  He had three children.  I remember the

name of two of them--Elsie and Gerald.  Gerald was

killed in the war, and they never did know where he

went, or anything about what happened to him.  Then

they moved to California.  We went there 'til the

eighth grade.  Then we had to go away to school.  And

Dad found a lady in Mesa, Arizona, that would take us,

take Paula and I.  Ruthie was staying with somebody

here in Farmington, and then she moved to Provo.  Then

Paula and I went from September to Christmastime, and

Paula was kind of ornery.  And she wouldn't mind the

lady, so they sent us home.

   

   Underhill:  And how'd you feel about that?

   

   Blair:  I didn't like it, because I liked Mesa

better.  Well, we could go to church there, and we

could go to Mutual, which was a church function.  And

at Toadlena, we didn't have any of that.  I really

enjoyed it there, but we moved to Shiprock.  Dad went

to work for the WPA, I think it was, building

reservoirs on the reservation.  They had two great big

tents, and we lived in those tents for a long time,

until they built a house for us.  And we caught a bus

from there and went to Kirtland.  That was quite an

experience.

   

   Underhill:  How long did it take you to get to

Kirtland?

   

   Blair:  Oh, a good hour, back in those days, 'cause

the roads weren't paved, they were dirt.  It was a good

school, Kirtland.  I enjoyed it very much.

   

   Underhill:  When you were young, did you speak

Navajo?

   

   Blair:  A little, not as much as--I should have

learned.  They were teaching the Navajos to speak

English, and we weren't allowed to talk to them in

Navajo.  I can talk a little bit, I can talk a little

bit of trading post Navajo, but as far as having

conversations outside of the trading post, I couldn't

do that.

   

   Underhill:  Did you have a Navajo nickname growing

up?

   

   Blair:    What was it, Lij?  ‘Asdzání hashké, I

think.

   

   Elijah Blair:  __________ make her say it.

   

   Blair:  What?

   

   Elijah Blair:  I was gonna make you say it.

   

   Underhill:  And what does that mean?

   

   Blair:  It means I was mad all the time, I guess , I

don't know.

   

   Elijah Blair:  "Mad woman."

   

   Blair:  That's what they called me after we got into

the store.  As a child, I don't remember any nickname.

They called me mean.  That's what they called me when I

was young and goin' to school.  Why me, I don't know,

but that's what I got stuck with.

   

   Underhill:  What was your mother like?  She had

seven children.

   Blair:  She was a wonderful woman.  How do I explain

Mother?   She was one of the most wonderful people I

ever knew.  She was kind to a fault.  She only whipped

me once that I remember of, in my whole life.

   

   Underhill:  Did you deserve it?

   

   Blair:  Probably.    We went out in that little

white house that's in that picture, and Dad had some

dynamite fuses out there.  We took dynamite fuses--

Monte and Ruthie and Paula and I took them up on the

side of the hill and we set them off.  They just chased

_____.  And it was horrible what they called them.  I

don't know if I should even tell what they called them

in those days, 'cause it's not nice.  Turn it off, so

this won't hear that.

   

   Underhill:  You can tell us when we're done, if

you'd rather not.

   

   Blair:  'Cause I don't want to say.  Well, anyway,

we set all those dynamite fuses off, and they just

chased all over the place, and we got a big bang out of

watchin' them, and then when we got home, Mother and

Dad were really aggravated with us, because we could

have blowed our little heads off, I guess.  She lined

all three of us up on the porch and took a buggy whip

and she whipped our legs.

   

   Underhill:  And what was your dad like?

   

   Blair:  Dad was kind, gentle--very kind and very

gentle.  I don't remember Dad ever spanking me.  They

punished me by putting me--when I'd do something wrong,

they'd put me down in the basement, 'cause I was scared

to death of the dark.  And it was dark and dreary and

damp, and that's where they kept potatoes and all the

perishable things that they sold in the store, they

kept them down in the basement.  Oh, I hated that

place!  All the devils in hell were there.

   

   Underhill:  What do you remember about trading?

When a Navajo customer would come into the store, can

you tell us what a typical interaction might be?

   

   Blair:  Well, they just asked for what they wanted,

and if they didn't have the money, then Dad charged it

and we'd charge it on the charger.  We just had a

little--what do you call them, Lij?

   

   Elijah Blair: The McCaskey accounting system, [you

kept] a little pad.

   

   Blair:  Little account papers.  We'd charge it on

there, and then they'd generally pay for it.  Lamb

season and wool season, they'd pay up their accounts.

Dad just--he was very trustworthy, and the Indians were

trustworthy then, too.  They were honest.  I'm sorry to

say they're not like they used to be.  They were very

good people back when I was growin' up.  Most of them

are good people still yet, but some of them are not.

   

   Underhill:  And would both men and women come into

the store to trade?

   

   Blair:  Oh, yes, a lot of them.  We had a great big

potbelly stove and they'd come in and Dad built a bench

alongside the store, and they'd sit there and  have

gossip sessions--just enjoy each other's company.  Dad

and Mother would talk to them.

   

   Underhill:  In Navajo?

   

   Blair: Yes.

   

   Underhill:  And would both men and women have

accounts?

   

   Blair:  No, I don't think....  Well, the ones that

wove rugs did have accounts, yes, but I don't think

there was too many women alone had accounts.  I don't

really remember that much.  When we moved to Mancos

Creek, there was a lot of women had accounts, because

they did more work than the men did.

   

   Underhill:  And what were the popular items that the

men and women liked to trade for and have?

   

   Blair:    Coffee, lard, sugar.  That was the main

things--coffee, lard, sugar, and flour.

   

   Underhill:  Did your parents accept pawn items?

   

   Blair:  You know, I don't think Dad did too much

pawn--not when I was young, anyway.  If he did it, I

don't remember.  Doesn't seem like he did very much

pawn.  If he did, I don't remember.

   

   Underhill:  Did your family go to any Navajo

ceremonies while you were growing up?

   

   Blair:  Oh, yes.  Oh, yes, lots of them.

   

   Underhill:  What were they like?

   

   Blair:  We went to squaw dances, and we went to

coming out parties for the young girls [Kinaalda], and

fire dances, and their ceremonial dances, Yé’ii

bicheiis.

   

   Underhill:  Would the missionary family also go to

the ceremonies?

   Blair:  I don't remember them going to those

ceremonies.  I really don't remember them going to the

ceremonies at all.  The Kobeses, you mean?  (Underhill:

Yes.)  No, I don't think they did go very much.

   

   Underhill:  And as a child, what were your

impressions of the Navajo people?

   

   Blair:  They were my playmates, they were my

friends, they were good people.

   

   Underhill:  When did your family leave Toadlena?

   

   Blair:   Daddy left Toadlena when he came to Mancos

Creek to help me, because they drafted Raymond into the

service and I was there by myself, and with a baby to

take care of.  I think that was....  Hm....  About

1944--1943, somewhere along in there.  Raymond worked

at the refinery at Prewitt, and as long as he worked

there, he was not eligible for the draft because it was

a necessary thing for the defense, I guess, making

gasoline and what have you.  And Roscoe talked him into

going to Mancos Creek to take care of the store, and

sold him a half-interest in it, and I went to the

closet and bawled my eyes out because I didn't like it.

But about three months later they drafted Raymond, and

then he had to go to the Marine Corps.  So Dad came

there to help me.  I guess at that time he sold the

store to Grace and Charles.

   

   Underhill:  How did you meet Raymond?

   

   Blair:    No!  Well, you want the truth, or do you

want me to fabricate it?

   

   Underhill:  I think your children and your great-

grandchildren deserve the truth.

   

   Elijah Blair:  I know they do

   .

   Blair:  Oh, shoot!  When I was about thirteen,

Charles was workin' at the store, and he had a magazine

called Ranch Romances.  In the back of it, it had pen

pals.  So Paula and I decided we would write to, see if

we could get our names  printed in that magazine, and

they printed mine.  And I got letters from all over the

world, and Raymond was one of them.

   

   Underhill:  Was he in Kentucky then when he wrote to

you?

   

   Blair:  No, he was in the Marine Corps in the

Philippines.  And then he went to China.  I have nearly

all of his letters.  Somewhere along in there, he

decided he wanted me to quit writing to everybody else

but him.  So I did.

   

   Underhill:  And you knew then!    Now, when he was

released from military service, he came back?

   Blair:  He wrote to Mother and Dad and asked if he

could come to visit me.  Daddy was very much against

it.  Dad had been in the service at Fort Windgate, and

he said, "Servicemen are no good!  [I] don't want you

to have anything to do with this boy."  So Mother wrote

to him and told him that he was welcome to come.  And

then Raymond wrote to Mother and Dad both, and Dad

finally wrote to him and told him he could come.  And

then when he got out of the service in Portsmouth,

Virginia, I guess it was, instead of going home, like

he should have, to see his parents, he caught a bus and

came to Gallup and sent me a telegram when to meet him,

and his telegram came with the mail, and it was late

coming, so Grace and Charles and Ruthie and I crawled

in the car and we went to Gallup to meet him.  Grace

and Charles and Ruthie run off and left me all by

myself.    And he had told me what he was going to

wear, and I'd told him what I would be wearing, and we

met on the streets in Gallup.

   

   Underhill:  Oh, my goodness!  And what did you think

when you first saw him?

   

   Blair:  I was scared to death!    About his first

words to me were, "Do you want a stramberry ice cream?"

I told him no.  He said, "Well, how about a soda pop

then?"  I said, "No, thank you."  Anyway, Grace and

Charles and Ruthie finally came back, and we came to

Toadlena, and there was some kind of a party there that

night.  They had parties there all the time, and the

government school people came to the trading post, and

then we went to the government school and they had

bridge parties and different kind of parties, different

card games and things.  When we walked through the

door, Dad met us at the door.  Before that, when we

started, it was kind of funny, Dad stood on the porch

of the store and he shook his finger in my face and he

said, "You'll be sorry, my girl; you'll be sorry!  This

is not the right thing to do!"  But it was too late

then.  Dad looked Raymond in the eye, and Raymond

looked Dad in the eye.  They were just like that from

then on.  They were closer than Dad and his own sons--

they really were.  I don't know what it was, some kind

of a charisma or something.  (with emotion)  They were

buddies from then on.  They hardly ever did anything

without each other.  It was really kind of funny, that

Dad and Raymond took such an instant liking to each

other.  Of course the liking was love.

   

   Underhill:  And when did you marry?

   

   Blair:  On the twenty-fifty of December 1937.  I met

him in October.    But we'd been corresponding ever

since I was about thirteen.  We got married in front of

the Christmas tree, and Mr. Kobes married us.

   

   Underhill:  Now, in 1937--and I'll shift gears a

little bit for you--that was in the middle of stock

reduction, or just the end of stock reduction?  Do you

remember much about that?

   

   Blair:  Yes, I remember about it.  They really

chomped the Indians down on their stock, and it was

sad, because they weren't rich to begin with, and then

they chopped them down on their livestock that they

could have.  They really struggled.  It was a struggle

for them to make a living from then on.

   

   Underhill:  Were animals destroyed at Toadlena?

   

   Blair:  No, I don't remember animals being destroyed

there.  I think they just took them to Gallup and put

them on a train and sold them to wherever.  I imagine

to wherever they butchered animals at that time, and

sold them for meat.  I guess that's what happened, I

really don't remember about that.  Grace probably

remembers more about that than I did.  But I don't know

whether Grace was there at that time or not, 'cause she

was down in Southern New Mexico after they first got

married, so I don't really remember about that.

   

   Underhill:  And do you recall at all what impact it

had on your dad's business?

   

   Blair:  Well, I know--Grace probably told this

story--I know that Dad had a contract with a buyer that

was any number of sheep--it was an unlimited number.

And the stock market broke, and Dad had that contract,

so he went around and bought a lot of other traders'

livestock at the going price that Dad got, and then Dad

had a guilty conscience about it, because the bottom

dropped out of everything, so Dad really went into

debt.  He really went into debt, and it took him 'til

he left Toadlena to get out of debt, I think.  When he

sold Toadlena, I think he paid off the last debt he

owed.  [He] was out of debt then.

   

   Underhill:  You mentioned that he worked for the

WPA.  Do you recall what he thought about the WPA?

   

   Blair:  Well, he taught the Navajos to build

reservoirs all over the reservation, and windmills to

feed their livestock so that they could catch the water

so that they could have the water to feed their

livestock.  And windmills and reservoirs is what I

remember, with the old scoop shovels that they used to

dig the places out to make the reservoirs with, with

their horses and fillin' the scoop shovels.  The scoop

shovels were about that wide, as I remember, and pretty

long, and they just go along and scoop up the dirt.

   

   Underhill:  Do you think the Navajo were aware of

the Depression or big world issues?

   

   Blair: .  (pause)  I don't think as much as the rest

of us did.  But when the war came along, I think they

did, because they were drafted into the service.

   

   Underhill:  How many folks that you knew, Navajo

men, were drafted?

   

   Blair:  (whew)  I don't remember.

   

   Underhill:  A fair amount?

   

   Blair:  Quite a number.  I know they went to the

Marine Corps base in San Diego, and that's where

Raymond went, too, when they drafted him.  They put him

on the rifle range, because they couldn't get through

to the Navajos what they wanted them to do.  And

Raymond said he made sharp shooters out of every one of

them.  So they thought the Navajos were pretty good at

that, after Raymond could talk Navajo to them and told

them what he wanted done, and teach them how to shoot,

'cause Raymond was a sharp shooter in the Marine Corps,

too.  He's got medals for that all over the place.    I

don't know where they're at ______________.

   

   Underhill:  What was happening at the trading posts

during the war?  How did the war affect trading?

   

   Blair:  Well, you had rationing, which was....  But

I don't think it affected the Navajos too much.  They

still had enough coffee and sugar and lard and flour,

and they had their livestock for their meat.  I don't

think it affected them too much.  And they didn't very

many of them have cars.  Most of them had just wagons

and teams that they came to the stores with.

   

   Underhill:  And when they came to the store, where

did they stay?

   

   Blair:  Well, at Toadlena, I really don't remember.

Mancos Creek, we had a hogan out the side of the store

that they stayed in when they came to the store and

they needed to stay overnight.  They all stayed in that

hogan out the side of the store.

   

   Underhill:  How many people would it hold?

   

   Blair:  Whew!, as many as could [fit].  They slept

on the floor on the sheepskins.  We didn't have any

beds.  They put a stove in the middle of the hogan,

just like the general hogans were.  That's the way they

stayed.  At Toadlena, I really don't remember.

   

   Underhill:  At Toadlena or Mancos Creek, would you

buy lambs every year?

   

   Blair:  Yes.

   

   Underhill:  Can you remember roughly how many?  What

would be an average buy?

   

   Blair:  Shoot, I don't remember.  I know they had

quite a herd at Mancos Creek.  I imagine somewhere over

a thousand, but I couldn't say for sure.

   

   Underhill:  And how did you get those to market?

   

   Blair:  We herded them from Mancos Creek to

Farmington, put them on the train down here.  We herded

them across the mesas from Mancos Creek, clear over

those mesas, and came down, what, Apache Street?  Oh,

here I am talkin' with my hands again!

   

   Underhill:  That's okay.  That's great.

   

   Blair:  Apache Street.  I have pictures of when we

came down Apache Street.  The cars would--Raymond would

get out in front of the sheep and he would tell the

people, "Please don't blow your horns, and please just

get off the side of the road and let us get our sheep

by."  And a lot of them wouldn't do it, they'd blow

their horns, and when they did, the sheep would just go

into a circle and mill right around in the middle of

the road, and nobody could go anyplace.  I remember one

time there was a truck driver in a great big truck.

Raymond asked him, "Please don't blow your horn or

anything."  He blowed his horn anyway.  It made Raymond

really mad.  He didn't get mad very often, but he

grabbed the door, pulled him out of there, and shook

him.  He said, "Don't you ever do anything like that

again!"    I grabbed him, I said, "Raymond!, Raymond!,

don't do that!, don't do that!"  Anyway, we got them on

in here.  Farmington wasn't very big at that time.

   

   Underhill:  And how long would it take you to get

from Mancos Creek?

   

   Blair:  Oh, two or three weeks.

   

   Underhill:  And would you go on the drive?

   

   Blair:  Well, we'd go out every night to see where

they were, and follow them along, and bring their

supplies to them, the Indians that were herding the

sheep.  We'd bring them supplies that they needed.

   

   Underhill:  And how many folks usually would take a

herd?

   

   Blair:  Oh, four or five [and sheep dogs that

belonged to the Indians].

   

   Underhill:  And at Mancos Creek, when Raymond first

agreed, was he a partner with Roscoe McGee?

   

   Blair:  Yeah, Roscoe sold it to him when he asked

him to come over there--sold him half of it.  And then

when they drafted Raymond, he sold the other half to

Daddy.

   

   Underhill:  You said you stood in the closet and

cried.    Why did you do that?

   

   Blair:  I didn't want to go back to the trading

post.

   

   Underhill:  Really?

   

   Blair:  We were doing real well at the refinery, but

Raymond's lungs were not too good there, and the doctor

told him that he needed to get away from the refinery,

the gas and all the fumes and everything.  That's one

reason we moved out.  It was about three months and

they drafted him--if it was even that long.

   

   Underhill:  You mentioned you had a child.

   

   Blair:  I had Diane then.  She was between three and

four years old when we moved there.  She was born in

1940.

   

   Underhill:  And where was she born?

   

   Blair:  In Gallup, St. Mary's Hospital.

   

   Underhill:  So what was Mancos Creek like in the

early time, when you're out there with your daughter

and your father came to help?

   

   Blair:  We didn't have any running water, didn't

have any electricity.  We had a fireplace and we had a

big potbelly stove, a stove in the store.  It was a

good place.  It was a good place to be.  Lots of good

memories from there.  When Diane had to go to school

and I boarded her out....  Well, in the meantime,

Raymond was drafted and went in the service, and then

he came home in 19....  When did he come home?  He came

home in 1944, I think.  Somewhere along in there, he

came home from the service.  And then I had Michael.

Before that--way before that--he went to work at the

government school at Chinle, and I was pregnant with

our first child then.  That was a long time ago.  And I

wasn't feelin' very good, and went to see the doctor,

and the government doctor....  Oh, how do I say it?  He

examined me internally, which he shouldn't have done,

and he broke the water, and he insisted that we stay

there at Chinle, and I said no, because I knew that the

baby couldn't have been over six months, and there was

no way back that time that they could take care of him.

So they took me to Gallup, and he only lived two hours.

   

   Underhill:  And that was your first child?

   

   Blair:  That was my first child.  And then Michael

was born in 1946.  Diane was born in 1940, and I was

ill during a lot of that time.  I was in the hospital

more than I was out, I think.

   

   Underhill:  Do you have just two children?

   

   Blair:  Just two--two living.  They're good kids.

   

   Underhill:  And what was life like for them growing

up at Mancos Creek Trading Post?

   

   Blair:  Well, as I said, Diane, we boarded her out

with Ruthie's mother-in-law, Grandma McGee.  First we

sent her--the bus run from Cortez to Shiprock, just

right for her to go to school down there the first

year.  But a lot of times those bus drivers would

forget to pick her up.  And Raymond had sold our car.

About the time the war started, he sold our car for

more than we paid for it to begin with.  He thought

we'd just come to town and buy another car, and it was

impossible, so we were afoot.  I'd have to borrow a

pickup or something from an Indian, and go down and

pick her up.  Either that, or she'd have to stay with

the schoolteacher down there.  They didn't like that

very well, so we started boarding her with Grandma

McGee until Michael started school, and then we moved

in here.  First we lived in a little shack up where

Mesa Shopping Center is right now.  And I mean it was a

little shack, right out in the middle of--that whole

thing was just a big field, and that little shack was

out in the middle of it.  We lived there 'til we got

this house built.  In February we moved into this

house.  (pause)  That day  Raymond had a payday at

Mancos Creek and he needed to go.  He just moved me in

here, then he took off.  (pause)  We'd just bought a

new Chevrolet truck, and when he got to the hogback, he

said he noticed before that, that it wasn't driving

just exactly right--and I had driven it, too, and I had

noticed it didn't drive just exactly right.  We didn't

know what was wrong.  We had taken it into the garage

several times, but they couldn't find out what was

wrong.  Anyway, he got to the hogback down here, and

the, oh, whatchacallthat?  Lij, what do you call that

thing?

   

   Elijah Blair:  The drag link on the steering.

   

   

   Blair:  The drag link came off, and he just went

over the bank into the wash down below.  They didn't

have that divider in there then.  I don't know how he

ever came out of it alive, but he did, thank goodness.

That was the day we moved into this house.

   

   Underhill:  What year was that?

   

   Blair:  Oh, Michael was six years old, so what year

was that?  It was February.

   

   Underhill:  [Was it 1952?]

   

   Blair:  [It was] 1950, 1951, 1952, something along

in there.  I don't remember exactly when.  But we are

commanded to keep a journal, and I am regretting the

fact that we didn't keep a journal.

   

   Underhill:  The Church asks that you keep a journal?

   

   Blair:  Yes, the Church asks us that we keep a

journal.  I'm tryin' to now.  I'm trying to catch up on

things, and I'm trying to write my life story as I

remember it, and things that happened to me.  And I'm

tryin' to do that now, to be a better member of the

Church--I keep a journal.

   

   Underhill:  When you were at Mancos Creek, and

before you moved to town, did you have a post office?

   

   Blair: No.  They brought the mail there for the

Indians, but we didn't have a post office.

   

   Underhill:  What kinds of services did you provide?

You had the trading business, but what other kinds of

things did you do for [your Navajo customers]?

   

   Blair:  Oh, dear.  Raymond was doctor and nurse,

midwife, you name it!  Anytime the Indians had trouble,

they came to Raymond, and he would go get them and take

them to Shiprock to the hospital.  I remember one time

that stood out in my mind very much was ... they lived

up on top of the mesa above the store, and the wife of

the man up there came down and said somebody had shot

her husband, and they needed to get him to Shiprock.

So Raymond ran to Shiprock to get the people to come

and get him, and they wouldn't do it.  So Raymond went

back and carried him off the mesa and took him to the

hospital at Shiprock, but he died anyway, because it

was so long between the time he was shot and gettin'

him off of that mesa wasn't easy.

   

   Underhill:  Why do you think they wouldn't come get

him?

   

   Blair:  I always wondered why in the world they

wouldn't go and get that man.  But they just said “No.”

Well, it was on the Ute Reservation.  That was one

reason, I guess.  We were two miles into the Ute

Reservation--Mancos Creek is, from the state line, it's

in Colorado.  And I guess that was one of the reasons

they wouldn't come and get him.  I don't know.  I

really don't understand why they wouldn't come and get

him.  But they didn't, so Raymond went up and carried

him off the mesa, put him in the back of the pickup and

took him to Shiprock to the hospital.

   

   Underhill:  What was your role at the trading post?

   

   Blair:    Helpmate.

   

   Underhill:  And what kind of help did you provide?

   

   Blair:  Anything that had to be done.  We had a

cistern, and Raymond was too big to crawl down in the

cistern to clean the cistern out.  That was my job.

It wasn't easy, it was a big cement hole.  It was deep.

There was a ladder down there, and I'd clean it out.

Then we'd go to Cortez and haul the water in a tank and

fill it up.  We had a pump on it.  Raymond finally got

tired of that, and he bought me a second-hand sink from

Gallup.  Sometime we went over there to Gallup and he

found a second-hand sink and he brought it in and put

it in and plumbed it and put me a pump on my sink in

the kitchen.  And that was a great day, I didn't have

to go outside to get the water anymore.  And a lot of

our water was caught rainwater and snowmelt, and it

went through a , what would you call it?  A big box

that had different kind of some rocks to sand--bigger

rocks on into little rocks--so it was purified.  At

least they said it was.  It didn't kill any of us.  And

then it went into the cistern from there.  But the

water came off of the barn and off of the house and

went through that purifying system.  That's where part

of our water come from.

   

   Underhill:  Did you have electricity?

   

   Blair:  Nope.  Then we finally got electricity.

They put a little light plant in, and we got

electricity at last.  That was a great day.

   

   Underhill:  How would you receive your news from the

outside world?

   

   Blair:  We had a radio.  Like that one down there,

just a battery radio.  I think I've got it down in the

basement right now.  It was just an old battery-

operated radio, and then we got an electric one.  I

know it's down there in the basement.  I don't want

anybody to go down there!

   

   Underhill:  How often were you visited by salesmen?

   

   Blair:  Oh, about once a month, I think.  Then we

traded with the Farmington Mercantile, which was down

by the railroad, right down there.  I can show you

where it's at, but I can't tell you where it's at.

   

   Underhill:  And what kinds of things did you buy

from salesmen?

   

   Blair:  Everything we bought in the store:  shoes,

socks, underwear.  We bought material.  I think first

we went to Gallup and bought it from the Kirk Brothers.

And then when they got the Mercantile down here, we

bought everything we needed--all the canned goods and

everything like that, that we needed.

   

   Underhill:  So at Mancos Creek, how many employees

did you have?

   

   Blair:  Until I left there, nobody.  And then, oh,

when Daddy was there, and my mother.  They had a house

of their own there.  There's nothing there now.  They

tell me they just wiped the whole thing out, there's

just nothin'.  But Dad had a good house there, and we

lived in the store.  The trading post had a house right

beside it, and we lived in there.  Until Raymond bought

Round Rock and Rock Point, he took care of Mancos

Creek--Daddy and him.  He took care of Mancos Creek

after I moved to town, Michael had to start school.

There was no school out there, and there was no way to

get him to school.   I just had to do it.  I had to be

with my kids, and that was Raymond's desire, too.

   

   Underhill:  Of that generation of traders, what

characteristics did they have in common?

   

   Blair:  What characteristics did they have in

common?  Well, I think they all loved the Navajos, and

I think the Navajos all loved them.  I know that the

Navajos that we traded with loved Raymond.  They

depended on him for everything under the sun.  You name

it, and they depended on him to take care of it for

them.  He was a good man, my husband was.

   

   Underhill:  What might separate a good trader from a

bad one?

   

   Blair:  Somebody that took advantage of the Navajos.

Somebody that would take their pawn in, and the minute

it was dead, sell it; [somebody] that cheated them on

their lambs and their wool.  That's the one thing I can

say about my husband, he never cheated a Navajo out of

one red cent.  In fact, there was a family that lived

right across the state line from us that he fed all the

time he was there, practically.  Once in a while one of

them, they had a little herd of sheep, not very many,

but a little herd of sheep.  (pause)  Maybe I shouldn't

tell that story.  But once he was told, "Because Frank

and Ben Todasheenee [phonetic spelling] had lots of

sheep, pay them that much for their lambs and wool and

the sheep.  And because Lizzie over here just had a

little flock, pay her less."  Raymond said, "No, I will

not do that.  They will both get the same price, or not

at all, or I won't do it."  He never cheated a Navajo

in his life.  And he never sold their pawn.  There was

pawn at Round Rock, and when we sold Round Rock, there

was pawn that had been there for I don't know how many

years, and he still didn't sell it.  I don't know what

happened to it after he sold the store.  But I know

that he never sold a piece of pawn unless the Navajo

said that he didn't want it anymore.  That was the only

way he'd sell it.  He did hang it out.  When it went

dead, he'd hang it out.  The Indians would come in, and

they'd say, "We don't want you to do that," so he'd put

it back in the vault.  He just didn't do things like

that.  I guess that's why I'm not a millionaire!    But

that's all right, he was honest, anyway.  He was honest

to a fault.

   

   Underhill:  And would the Navajo folks who had

brought in the pawn ask to borrow it?

   

   Blair:  Oh, yes, they borrowed it all the time.  It

was a safe place to keep it.  They'd borrow it for

their sings and their ceremonies, and when they got

through with it, they'd bring it back.  They said,

"That's a safe place to keep it.  We know that it's all

right there."  Many of them said that to him.  Raymond

felt the same way about it.  He was a good man.

   

   Underhill:  What do you think the Navajo customers

thought of you and your role at the trading post?

   

   Blair:  They called me "the mad woman."  ‘Asdzání

hashké.

   (laughter)

   

   Underhill:  And why was that?

   

   Blair:  I don't know why they called me that.

(chuckles)  I really don't know why they called me

that, 'cause I'd get mad at them and cuss them out once

in a while.

   Underhill:  What kinds of things did they do that

would be irritating?

   

   Blair:  Well, it started at Toadlena.  Some of the

Navajos--one of the Navajos especially--would steal

from us.  I'd get mad at him and yell at him.  I don't

think Dad ever yelled at Navajo in his life.  I'd yell

at him and holler at him and get mad at him, 'cause

he'd do things that were wrong.  At Mancos Creek they'd

do the same thing.  The Navajos, a lot of them were

thieves.  And if they could get away with it, it wasn't

a sin.  If they got caught, it was a sin.  And when

they stole something, and I'd catch them at it, I'd

cuss them out. (laughter)    I got along real well with

the Navajos, they were my friends.  There was some that

lived right around the trading post, and they took care

of me when Raymond was gone, and saw that I was all

right.

   

   Underhill:  Your parents were very active in the rug

business.  (Blair:  Yes.)  Who were some of the weavers

you remember?

   

   Blair:  Daisy Toggelchee was the main one.  At

Mancos Creek was Hosteen Yazzie’s family, mostly, that

wove the good rugs.  And there was a few others that

wove rugs.  Lizzie--and that's all I know her by, is

Lizzie--was right across the river, right across the

state line--wove some small rugs.  And her daughter

wove some small rugs, too, but they weren't anything to

brag about.  They were just little rugs, helped them to

get along, keep them alive.  But Hosteen Yazzie’s

family were--I guess they called them Teec Nos Pos,

didn't they?

   

   Elijah Blair:  What's that?

   

   Blair:  The Hosteen Yazzie rugs.

   

   Elijah Blair:  Oh, Teec Nos Pos rugs, yes.

   

   Blair:  I think they called them Teec Nos Pos, but

they didn't come from Teec Nos Pos, they came from

Mancos Creek--the ones that I remember.  I don't

remember any of the Teec Nos Pos rugs looking like that

at all.  I have one left.    It's at the bottom of my

cedar chest.

   

   Underhill:  And how did your parents, or later on,

you and Raymond, influence

   Navajo weaving?

   

   Blair:  Raymond worked a lot with Hosteen Yazzie's

family, I know that.  The other ones, I don't think he

worked with them too much on the weaving.  But Dad's

the one that worked with them at Toadlena--and Charles,

later on, after Dad left.  But Dad and Mr. Davies are

the ones that really worked with them on the Two Gray

Hills rugs.  Then Mr. Davies left, and I don't know who

took over Two Gray Hills after Mr. Davies left, but Dad

kept working with the Indians.  I remember hour after

hour he'd sit on the living room floor, going over

those rugs, telling the Indians how to make the designs

better, and how to clean up the wool better, and how to

card it finer.  He really worked with them hard, Daddy

did, to get the rugs to where they were something

special.  I think--I don't know whether you can get the

book, I don't have it, I wish I did.  It's by Gilbert

Maxwell.  He tells a lot about how Daddy worked with

the Indians.  I don't even know whether....  I think

probably maybe in a library in Albuquerque or

someplace, I don't know.

   

   Underhill:  We may have one, too, in Flagstaff.

   

   Blair:  You've got one?

   

   Underhill:  I think so.

   

   [END SIDE A, BEGIN SIDE B]

   

   Blair:  By Gilbert Maxwell?

   

   Underhill:  ... history I'm reading.

   

   Blair:  Well, he pretty well summed it up, I think.

   

   Underhill:  And based on your experience, what makes

a good rug?

   

   Blair:  The pattern, the weave, and the care and the

straightness of it.  If it was straight and the pattern

was like it should be, not all globbed up, was what

determined if it was a good rug or not.

   

   Underhill:  And who bought the rugs?

   

   Blair:  Daddy bought them, when I was there.  And

Raymond bought them at Mancos Creek and Rock Point and

Round Rock.  And then Mr. Witt came to Round Rock and

he bought rugs, too.  And Mr. Witt worked for Rock

Point a long time, and Raymond finally sold him part of

it.  He owned part of it until we sold it.  He was gone

by then, and his wife owned the other part, and we had

Round Rock.  We had people workin' for us there, but

Raymond pretty well ran the store.  He was there most

of the time.  Joe Wright lives in Cortez, he was there

with us.  Walter Scribner worked for us a while.    My

daughter and her husband worked there for a while.  Her

husband didn't like it out there, so they moved to

town.

   Underhill:  And who would they sell rugs to over the

years?

   

   Blair:  A lot of them we sold to tourists.  I don't

remember people comin' to Mancos Creek, rug buyers.

It's just tourists bought them, mostly--come through

and buy them.

   

   Underhill:  And how did the tourists strike you,

coming to Mancos Creek?

   Blair:  Well, they were different!    They were all

right.  It was fun.

   

   Underhill:  Where were most of the tourists from, do

you remember?

   

   Blair:  All over, everyplace.

   

   Underhill:  Foreign countries, or just United

States?

   

   Blair:  I don't remember any foreign countries, but

all over the United States.  As far as I can remember,

they just came from everywhere.

   

   Underhill:  Do you remember any humorous episodes

with the tourists?

   

   Blair:  Oh, not really.  They just came in and went

through the rugs and bought what they wanted and left.

   

   Underhill:  Was your husband a railroad retirement

agent?

   Blair:  He worked for the Railroad Retirement Board.

He took Indians from Mancos Creek, from Rock Point, and

from Round Rock, brought them in to the agent down here

in Farmington.  That was one of the salvations of the

traders and Navajos at that time, was the railroad

work.  They made good money on the railroad.  He also

worked with them on fires all over the place.  They'd

have a forest fire someplace, and he recruited a bunch

of Navajos to go work.  He'd take them to the fires and

bring them back, and they made good money at that, too.

It was a good job for them.

   

   Underhill:  I have another question about that for

you, but we're going to switch tapes.  (pause)  This is

Tape 2 of our interview with Marilene Blair, and it is

Thursday, February 12, 1998, about 1:45 p.m.  We were

speaking about the Railroad Retirement Board, and the

Navajo out working on the railroad and fighting fires

and that being a salvation to the traders.  Did you

handle the payment of those checks to the Navajo?

   

   Blair: Yes.  They got a check from the Railroad

Retirement Board, came to them in the mail.  The

firefighters, they paid them off when they got through

with the fire, and Raymond would bring them home.  He

went with them a lot of times.  Michael went with them

a lot of times.  I remember Michael went once, he

wasn't even old enough to drive, but he drove a truck,

full of Navajos.

   

   Underhill:  Was it red?, your truck?

   

   Blair:  No.    I don't remember what color that

truck was.  We did have a red truck--that's the one

that liked to killed my husband.

   

   Underhill:  It was around 1952 when you bought Round

Rock?

   

   Blair:  No, Rock Point and Round Rock, we bought

Rock Point first.  It was about....  What did I put

down there?  (shuffles papers)  Rock Point in about

1948, and Round Rock about 1949.  Now, I won't swear to

that.  I won't say that that's absolute truth, because

I don't really remember.  I know when we sold them,

I've got the papers when we sold them here.

   

   Underhill:  What were those two posts like?

   

   Blair:  Whew!  Rock Point was a hard place to get

into.  There were no roads into it.  We had to go over

the rocks to get to the stores.  The roads were not

good, they were dirt.  I remember when Michael was a

baby--oh, not a baby, he must have been about two or

three years old--we had to go out there, and it had

been snowing, and we got stuck.  We had a load of hay

on, and we almost used the whole load of hay gettin'

out of potholes.  Finally the last time he got stuck, I

had Michael's little potty with us, and he didn't have

anything else to put underneath the car to jack it up

and get it out of the mud, so he used that!    And we

went over the rocks to the trading post, and that was

quite a....  That's an experience.  Everybody ought to

try that just once. (laughter)   It wasn't a good road,

but it was passable and we made it.  It was fun.

   

   Underhill:  And that's Round Rock?

   

   Blair:  Rock Point.

   

   Underhill:  Okay, and then Round Rock, what kind of

place was that?

   

   Blair:  Well, to begin with, it was flat topped and

kind of run down.  Raymond fixed it up, put a roof on

it, and made it--I don't know what it looks like today.

I have no idea what it looks like today, but when we

left there, it was a good-lookin' place, good-lookin'

store.

   

   Underhill:  Were these both bullpen kinds of

arrangements?

   

   Blair:  Yeah.  Absolutely.  It was after that, that

they started takin' the bullpens out.

   

   Underhill:  Did you do that at those two stores over

the years?

   

   Blair: We always had bullpens.

   

   Underhill:  And how did the stores change?

   

   Blair:  Well, Thriftway, I think, bought them.

Clarence Wheeler bought Round Rock from us.  Shoot!

Memory, memory, memory!  Clarence Wheeler bought Round

Rock from us, and Bob Cook bought Rock Point from us…

when Thriftway took them over, they paid us.  They paid

us off.

   

   Underhill:  Now, early on, did you have a lease at

Mancos Creek on that post?

   

   Blair:  With the Ute Tribe, yeah.  Yeah, there was a

lease.

   

   Underhill:  And how long did that lease run?

   

   Blair:  Yeesh, I don't think we ever had to renew it

or anything--as far as I remember, anyway.  We just had

a lease with them at Rock Point.  On Round Rock, I

don't know whether we had to renew the lease or not.

Did we, Lij?

   

   Elijah Blair:  Annually.

   

   Blair:  Annually?  Well, Raymond did it.

   

   Elijah Blair:  Up until 1955.  That's when that

twenty-five-year lease came out.  I think you got it

from the Bureau of Indian Affairs _________ two or

three times with that.

   

   Blair:  We what?

   

   Elijah Blair:  The Bureau of Indian Affairs issued a

license/lease annually (Blair:  Yes.) and then you

renewed it every year until 1955.

   

   Blair:  And then the twenty-five-year came in, yes.

   

   Elijah Blair:  I think.

   

   Blair:  I think that's right, too.

   

   Elijah Blair:  I think that's the way it was.

   

   Underhill:  And when you sold the stores, were you

still on that twenty-five-year lease period?

   Blair:  Yes.

   

   Underhill:  What kind of restrictions were placed on

a trading post?

   

   Blair:  (whew)  They ruined the trading posts.  I

don't know whether the Navajos realize--to this day I

don't know whether they realize what they're doing to

their people by not allowing businesses to operate on

the reservation, because we hired the Navajo people to

help us in the stores all the time, even at Mancos

Creek.  If there's any work to be done, we hired the

Navajos to help us, and at Rock Point and Round Rock,

too.  Besides, we had a white man there to run the

store, but we always employed the Indian people to help

us--mostly women.  Men didn't work out so good as the

women did.  Women worked better than the men did.  We

employed them, they helped us run the stores.

   

   Underhill:  Were there regulations you had to

follow?  Carolyn, for instance, this morning mentioned

that you couldn't sell alcohol on the reservation.

   

   Blair:  No, we couldn't, thank goodness.

   

   Underhill:  Were there other kinds of things like

that, that you couldn't do?

   Blair:  That's the only one that I know of.  There's

no alcohol on the reservation to this day that I know

of.

   

   Underhill:  Now, when did, if you remember, roughly,

when did Raymond join the United Indian Traders

Association?

   

   Blair: When it was first organized, as far as I

know.  And don't ask me when that was, 'cause I don't

know!

   

   Underhill:  Did you have a stamp for jewelry and a

number?

   

   Blair:  They didn't make jewelry very much at Round

Rock and Rock Point, either one.  I don't remember the

stamp.  I know there was a stamp, but they didn't do

that at Rock Point and Round Rock--very little.

   

   Underhill:  And at Mancos Creek, you didn't have one

there?

   

   Blair:  No, we were on the Ute Reservation there.

   

   Underhill:  Oh, that's right.  Did you participate

in United Indian Traders Association?

   

   Blair:  I went to all the bashes they had.

   

   Underhill:  What were those like?

   

   Blair:  Some of them were pretty wild.  (laughter)

To be truthful!

   

   Underhill:  And then wild in what way?

   

   Blair:    Well, they weren't "wild," really.  There

was a lot of drinkin' that went on, but there wasn't

anything bad happened at them.  Just traders all got

together and hashed over their problems and their

successes.

   

   Underhill:  What were some of the problems, do you

remember?

   

   Blair:  Well, some of the restrictions that they

had, and later on was about pawn.  They put a lot of

restrictions on it, and I know that Raymond had a pawn

tag made up and sent it to Window Rock.  I don't even

know who was the tribal chairman then, president of the

tribe then.  He sent it down to Window Rock, and they

approved of it.  And then all of a sudden they decided

that it wasn't right, so they sued Clarence Wheeler and

Raymond.  They wouldn't let any of the Indians testify

for us.  We had a lot of Indians come in and wanted to

go and testify for us, but they wouldn't let the

Indians testify for us.  And some of our best

customers, who were the poorest, that Raymond helped

the most, were the ones that testified against us.

(wry chuckle)  And then they brought the check in that

they got paid for testifying against us, and laughed

and gave them to Raymond to pay the bills with.

   

   Underhill:  Oh, my gosh!

   

   Blair:  And that's the truth!  (laughs)

   

   Underhill:  Why do you think they did it?  Just to

get paid?

   

   Blair:  To get money, I guess, I don't know.  But it

was all about the pawn tag.

   

   Steiger:  Who paid them to testify that way?

   

   Blair:  I guess the tribe, as far as I know.

   

   Elijah Blair:  This was during that FTC hearing, in

that period.  Is that right, Aunt Marilene?  When DNA

and FTC (Blair:  That's right.) when that period was

goin' on.  Probably before FTC got involved.  DNA and

eventually the FTC got involved, but that was

_________________.

   

   Blair:  It was DNA that got Raymond and Clarence

Wheeler.

   

   Underhill:  What was the DNA?

   

   Blair:  Huh!  Don't ask me DNA!  I don't know what

it was!

   

   Underhill:  It was part of the tribal council?

   

   Blair:  Part of something that they had drawn up.  I

don't even know what it stood for.  Lij, what did it

stand for?

   

   Elijah Blair:  You asked me about this.  It's a

Navajo word, DNA, and I can't really say it and

pronounce it.  At that time the Legal Aid Service came

in nationally.  These Legal Aid attorneys came down

here, and they established this DNA, which actually was

supposed to protect the rights of Indian people from

exploitation and all the things that they said people--

not only on the reservation, but everywhere--but on the

reservation they called it DNA, and that was the

purpose it was set up for.

   

   Blair:  However, when that happened, Raymond quit

takin' pawn.  He kept their pawn that they'd already

put in there, he kept their pawn, and the Indians, if

they wanted to pawn something, had to bring it into

town to pawn it, and then they'd come in to Raymond and

wanted to go get their pawn, and lot of them lost their

pawn.  I know the Gold Tooths at Round Rock lost a lot

of their pawn to bringin' it to town and pawnin' it.

They wouldn't keep it, they didn't have to keep it but

six months, and then they could sell it.  But Raymond,

many a time I came to town and just purposely drove

into Farmington to pick up their pawn, up and down the

valley, where they had pawned it, and take it back to

Round Rock.  But Raymond never sold their pawn, unless

they told him to.  And the main thing that, in fact,

about the only thing that I can remember that they

didn't take out, and that Raymond didn't take, was the

shawls and robes.  They would come in and buy a new

shawl or a robe and use them in their ceremonies, and

then they didn't want it anymore, so Raymond would pawn

it.  And back then, the Pendleton shawls and robes

weren't very expensive.  I don't even remember how much

they were, but Raymond would pawn them for anywhere

from fifteen to twenty dollars, and they just wouldn't

take them out, because I guess it was superstition

because of what they'd been used for.  And I've got

quite a few shawls and robes that they just wouldn't

take out.  And we brought them to town and had them dry

cleaned, and so I have them, quite a few of them.

   

   Underhill:  You mentioned going to town to pawn.

What are some of the differences between trading posts

on the reservation and the ones in the border towns?

   

   Blair:  They didn't keep it.  I know what Raymond

did.  I know what Raymond did at Round Rock and Rock

Point.  He didn't sell their pawn.  But I know other

traders did sell their pawn.  The minute it'd go dead,

they'd hang it out, and I think it had to hang out for

a certain length of time, and then if the Indian didn't

take it out, they sold it.  But Raymond didn't--

absolutely never did that.  And that's one thing that

they....  I don't know.  I know that the Indians lost

an awful lot of their jewelry at that time, because

they just went to town and pawned it, and then they

couldn't take it out.

   

   Underhill:  How else has trading changed over time?

   

   Blair: No counter.  It's almost got like a

convenience store now.  Really, I have never been in

one of them.  I have never been in one of those trading

posts.  I haven't been to Rock Point or Round Rock

since they put it into a convenience store.  But I know

they did that.  And I don't want to go.  I don't want

to go back and see it anymore, like it is now, because

it's just not the same.  I think the closest thing

you'll find to a trading post right now is Lukachukai,

and that's Hank, Carolyn's son.  I think that's the

closest thing you'll find to a trading post right now,

isn't it, Lij?

   

   Elijah Blair:  Well, that and probably Shiprock

Trading.

   

   Blair:  It's still not behind the counter.

   

   Elijah Blair:  Oh.  Well, Hank's isn't behind the

counter, either.

   

   Blair:  It isn't?  Well, I don't know, I haven't

been there.

   Elijah Blair:  But you're right in that it's similar

to what it was like.

   

   Blair:  It's about as close as you're gonna find to

an old fashioned trading post.  But even Shiprock

isn't.  And Jed is a good man, too.  He's a very good

man.

   

   Elijah Blair:  Well, that's a step up after the

trading post.  He went to self-service.  I think of it

as more dealing like the trading posts did, although

they did make it self-service.

   

   Blair:  Yeah, Jed trades a lot like an old trader

did.  But it's still not behind the counter.

   

   Underhill:  What do you think the future is of

business with the Navajo?

   

   Blair:  Well, I don't think....  I don't see how the

Navajos make it right now.  I really don't understand

how they make it.  I don't know how they sell their

wool, I don't know how they sell their lambs, I think

they bring the wool to Shiprock.  I think that's right.

I think they bring the wool to Shiprock, and the agency

down there buys it.  I don't think the traders buy it

anymore.  I don't know, but I don't think they do.

Their lambs, I really don't know whether the tribe buys

them, or....  I just don't know.

   

   Underhill:  With the United Indian Traders

Association, what role did women play in the

association?

   

   Blair:    Nothing. (laughter)

   

   Underhill:  And I would like to know why that is!

   

   Blair:  'Cause the men were all--they were the

traders.  Women were just flunkies!    Well?!  We did

whatever had to be done, but the men were the traders.

We didn't buy the lambs.  I bought lambs, and I even

bought cows and sheep at Round Rock, when Raymond

wasn't there.  I learned!  I learned how to do it, but

it was hard, but I did learn how.  There was a time

when I was runnin' Round Rock and Raymond was runnin'

Rock Point.  I had to learn.

   

   Underhill:  Were you living there?

   

   Blair:  I was living at Round Rock, and Raymond was

livin' at Rock Point.  I had to learn how to do it, so

I did.  And I have bought cows and sheep and wool and

what have you.  But he taught me how.

   

   Underhill:  What are some of your favorite memories

at any of those posts over the years?

   

   Blair:    My favorite memories are at Toadlena,

growing up:  the canyon, the mountain, the valley, the

Two Gray Hills.    It was a wonderful life.  It was

really a wonderful life.  I don't think there's a

square inch of that mountain that I haven't been over.

And there was a time, a long time ago, when we were

young, that we had a cabin about halfway up the

mountain, a little cabin that they built by a lake they

called Hudson Lake.  The day school was out, we'd go up

to the cabin, and then we'd stay 'til the day school

started.  We tromped up and down the mountain every

day, from the cabin to the store and back up again.

But it was a good life, it was a very good life.

   

   Underhill:  Has the physical environment changed

much in that area over the years?

   

   Blair:  I think very much, very much.  It's not the

same at all.

   

   Underhill:  In what ways has it changed there?

   

   Blair:    Well, I think the Indians....  My

experience is at Round Rock, when I was there by

myself, was the Indians tried to take advantage of me,

'cause I was a woman.  And there was a bunch of boys

there that (chuckles) one of them got drunk one day and

just started walkin' around the store, pokin' the

windows out.  I got mad, I went out and I tied him to a

telephone post.  (laughter)

   

   Underhill:  How did you do that?

   

   Blair:  'Cause I was mad!  I got muscle!    And I

called the police, and he said, "Well, you've punished

him enough, just turn him loose."  I said, "What about

all my windows?!"  There was about five windows he just

poked them out.  He said, "Well, you've punished him

enough," and he turned him loose.  About three days

later, they set my hay barn on fire.  And I think they

did it 'cause I tied him to a telephone post.  And that

wasn't fun either.  The people at the government school

wouldn't let me use the water, and I said, "Get the

heck on out of here, I'll use the water if I want to!"

And I hooked up the hoses to it and we got it out.  But

the water at Round Rock belonged to the store.  We had

the well drilled.  There were a bunch of seismograph

crews out there, and we had the well dug.  We just had

a little pump on it, but the Indian school put a tower

on it, and then they used the water.  And then they

tried to charge us for the water.  Raymond said, "No

way, that water belongs to me!"  I don't know what they

did after we left--probably the Indian school took it

over.  But [it] doesn't matter.

     The Indians were a little bit hard to get along

with along toward the end, for me, bein' a woman.  And

I remember one night....  (chuckles)  I shouldn't tell

this.  But there was a big bank in the Chinle Wash

runnin' down below the store, and it was about as wide

as this house, maybe as wide as the yard, back behind

the store, before it dropped off into the wash.  These

same boys--I don't know, I didn't see them, but I know

it was the same boys--they drove in front of the store

and around in the back, back and forth, back and forth

like that.  And here I am, using my hands again!  I was

by myself, and I got worried.  It was late at night and

I got tired, and Raymond had a shotgun, and I got out

of bed and stuck the shotgun between my legs, and I

thought, I've got to figure out how to work this thing.

I touched the trigger and it went "schoom!"  And thank

goodness it hit one of those big logs!  Thank goodness

it didn't hit the roof, it hit one of the big logs.

But boy, (slaps hands together) it just got quiet like

that, and I didn't have any more trouble that night.

(laughter)

   

   Underhill:  They probably thought if you were crazy

enough to shoot your own ceiling, who knows what you'd

do, huh?! (laughter)

   

   Blair:  Well, I learned not to fool with the trigger

on the shotgun anymore!, that's for sure.  At least

they quit runnin' around the house like that, back and

forth.  They got out of there.

   

   Underhill:  What do you think you learned from all

your years living with the Navajo?

   

   Blair:  I learned to love them.  I learned to love

the Navajo people.  I still love the Navajo people.

They're good people--99 percent of them are good

people.  There's a few that are dingbats, just like the

dingbats in the white race or any other race.  But

they're good people, and I enjoyed them.  They're my

people.  I feel like I'm more Navajo than Anglo,

because I've lived with them all my life, practically.

   

   Underhill:  What do you think they may have learned

from you?

   

   Blair:    How to be mean!  (laughter)

   

   Elijah Blair:  Not to drive around the store!

(laughter)

   

   Blair:  Oh, I don't think I taught them much.  They

probably taught me a lot more than I ever taught them.

   

   Underhill:  What are you most proud of in your life?

   

   Blair:  I'm most proud of my family and my husband

and my children, my grandchildren, my great-

grandchildren.  And I think how Raymond would have

loved his great-grandchildren.  It's not fair!  I'm

pretty proud of my family, they're good family--even my

kitty.  That wasn't my kitty, that was Raymond's kitty,

and that's why he's up there with my family.

   

   Underhill:  What was his name?

   

   Blair:  Meow. (laughter)

   

   Underhill:  Good name!

   

   Blair:  He was born wild, his mother was born wild,

his grandmother was born wild, and she had him right

out here in a little shed behind our house, and it took

Raymond six months to tame him, but Raymond loved that

cat--he really loved that cat.  He was a good kitty.  I

had to put him to sleep, 'cause he got so sick, and he

got old.  That was hard.  But he was just like one of

the family.  And when Raymond got sick, I noticed in

the hospital he had little marks all over his knees,

and I couldn't figure out what in the world were the

little marks all over his knees.  And then after

Raymond passed away, I was sittin' in his chair over

there, and the kitty crawled in my lap, and I could see

where Raymond got the marks on his knees from.    But

he was a good kitty.  And I'm very proud of my family.

   

   Underhill:  Marilene, is there anything else you

would like to add to your interview?  (no audible

response)  We very, very much appreciate you sharing

your memories, and I know it will mean a lot to your

family as well.

   

   Blair:  Well, if you need to know when we sold Rock

Point and Round Rock....

   

   Underhill:  We'll add that [later].

   

   Blair:  On the twenty-seventh of July 1976, to

Clarence Wheeler.  That's Round Rock.  And July 1,

1976, to Bob Cook and Theta Cook, his wife.  Clarence

Wheeler and his wife, Celia Wheeler.  That's when we

sold the Rock Point and Round Rock trading posts.  I

should have one of those made.  Maybe I can give it to

Elijah, and he can....  (Underhill: We’ll get a copy of

that.)  Daddy's first business card.  It was "Navajo

Indian Trader," and it was C-R-O-Z-I-E-R, Crozier.

That was Two Gray Hills, that's where the mail came in,

until Mother got the post office at Toadlena.  He sold

Navajo rugs and silverware, his specialty.  And I could

get that made.  I just found that the other day.

   

   Underhill:  Well, copies of those things will be

great additions.  Marilene, thank you so much for

puttin' up with us!

   

   Blair:  Vernon's story here, I'll get that copied

and get it to you, too.  But that only goes as far as

Barrigo Pass.

   

   Underhill:  We'll be looking for yours, too,

_________.

   

   Blair:    I'm workin' on it, I'm tryin'.  This is

what Raymond’s creed was, I think.  (reading)  "The

most important message of all of this to me is a man

who knows the truth and is guided by it will inspire

confidence in all men, by the example he depicts."  And

I think that's my husband's--he wrote that.  And I

think that's kinda the man he was.  (pause)  He was a

good man.  One of the best.  That's enough!

   

   

   

   Note:  the official interview ends here.  The

following audio passages were recorded while still

photos were being shot.

   

   

   (tape turned off and on) And that house [hasn't been

together?] than when they left, except I do have that

desk, and we haven't talked about that.  He was gonna

leave it at Round Rock....  (tape turned off and on)

(Steiger makes a comment about getting a shot.)

(Elijah's aside not transcribed.)  You know somethin'

else they tell.  They say that Hubbell Trading Post is

the oldest trading post on the reservation.  That's not

true, Round Rock is.

   

   Elijah Blair:  I wish you'd have said that.  I

started to tell you to do that, because that is the

oldest established trading post (Blair:  It was started

by an Indian.) on the reservation.  Now, see, they said

that Fort Defiance was the original one by the traders,

but this was by an Indian, and it is the oldest

established store on the reservation.

   

   Blair:  That's right, absolutely.

   

   Elijah Blair:  I was hopin' maybe you'd say it.  I

can't write all these things, coax these people.  (tape

turned off and on)  That was a neat place.

   

   Blair:  And overalls, too.

   

   Elijah Blair:  I've got one of him and mom standing

out in front of a smokehouse.  He's got a cigar in his

hand.  He's got an old funny hat on that he always

wore.

   

   Blair:  Big smoke!

   

   Elijah Blair:  He loved cigars.  He chewed them!  He

chewed them.  He chewed tobacco, he didn't smoke it,

but he loved cigars.  Yeah.  That's my dad, see, right

there.  That ain't my dad with the suit on.

   

   Blair:  _________ could gather there.

   

   Elijah Blair:  He always wore overalls, bib

overalls.  And I've got a picture, but it's in those

boxes, when I eventually get them back from Jim--the

kids want the picture, but I'm gonna take it

___________, reproduce it….

   

   [END OF INTERVIEW]